The observation by Cwdjrxyz about the possibility of batch to batch
variability being responsible for reports of oxidized 1975 Mouton got
me thinking about this issue generally.

I have in the past opened bottles side by side specifically to look
for inter-bottle variability, which I have readily found and other
experienced tasters confirmed. This is a no-brainer given that
sometimes one bottle will be clearly corked while others are not; all
it takes is one tainted cork.

Variability can be attributed of course to several other factors.
Because I have purchased the test bottles from the same retailer,
storage and handling can be likely ruled out.

So, that leaves me to wonder how significant batch to batch
variability is.

Intuitively, a winery that makes 185,000 cases of a product (e.g., the
90-point Wine Spectator rated 2000 Columbia Crest Chardonnay Columbia
Valley Grand Estates) cannot make the stuff in one try.

So, intuitively again, no matter how hard the wine makers try, they
cannot produce batches that are identical.

Which then leads to the question, is the wine in each batch really the
same stuff?


On 20 Nov 2005 16:34:20 -0800, "
> wrote:

>There have been tasting notes for some bottles of Mouton 75 that proved
>a bit oxidized. Of course, at 30 years, some bottle variation is to be
>expected. I do not know if the less good bottles had been stored
>properly, if they had a cork problem, or if Mouton 75 was bottled in
>several batches that may not have been quite the same.

--
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Leo Bueno > wrote in
:

>
> So, intuitively again, no matter how hard the wine makers try, they
> cannot produce batches that are identical.
>
> Which then leads to the question, is the wine in each batch really the
> same stuff?
>
Leo, the answer is in general yes, and in specific, well, no. The basics
are going to be the same and on average the grapes going into any given vat
are going to be the same. I would suspect that during barrel ageing is the
biggest source of difference with the charcteristics of the barrel for
oxygenation, quality and age of oak etc. Basically, as I understand it,
everything gets treated the same but everything is not identical leading to
variation.


--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Leo Bueno wrote:
> The observation by Cwdjrxyz about the possibility of batch to batch
> variability being responsible for reports of oxidized 1975 Mouton got
> me thinking about this issue generally.
>
> I have in the past opened bottles side by side specifically to look
> for inter-bottle variability, which I have readily found and other
> experienced tasters confirmed. This is a no-brainer given that
> sometimes one bottle will be clearly corked while others are not; all
> it takes is one tainted cork.
>
> Variability can be attributed of course to several other factors.
> Because I have purchased the test bottles from the same retailer,
> storage and handling can be likely ruled out.
>
> So, that leaves me to wonder how significant batch to batch
> variability is.
>
> Intuitively, a winery that makes 185,000 cases of a product (e.g., the
> 90-point Wine Spectator rated 2000 Columbia Crest Chardonnay Columbia
> Valley Grand Estates) cannot make the stuff in one try.
>
> So, intuitively again, no matter how hard the wine makers try, they
> cannot produce batches that are identical.
>
> Which then leads to the question, is the wine in each batch really the
> same stuff?
>
>
> On 20 Nov 2005 16:34:20 -0800, "
> > wrote:
>
> >There have been tasting notes for some bottles of Mouton 75 that proved
> >a bit oxidized. Of course, at 30 years, some bottle variation is to be
> >expected. I do not know if the less good bottles had been stored
> >properly, if they had a cork problem, or if Mouton 75 was bottled in
> >several batches that may not have been quite the same.

In the past, many top Bordeaux wines were bottled over a considerable
period of time. This does not seem to be as common anymore. Several
types of grapes may be used to make red Bordeaux. Usually each type is
kept apart until barrel aging is completed. Then it is decided how much
of each wine to put in the final blend. Barrels not up to par or in
excess of needs for the blend get sold as something else, perhaps as a
second label, or are sold as bulk wine if really foul. On the other
hand, many German wines are made in many batches. There can be several
batches of auslese, for example. However every different batch must be
submitted for evaluation and must display an AP number on the label
that is given to that batch of wine. And a top batch of wine, such as a
J.J. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Long Gold Capsule auslese, can cost very
much more than the "normal" batches of this wine.

Unless you have an accurate, complete history of the storage of a wine
and who bottled it, all you can do is speculate about what may cause
bottle variation. Bottle variation often becomes more apparent as wine
ages. One only has to look at M. Broadbent's tasting notes for older
top wines. He has tasted many top Bordeaux reds multiple times, and
even the top wines can be rather variable. In the past it was quite
common to ship red Bordeaux in barrel to the UK and other countries,
where wine merchants bottled the wine when they thought it was ready.
This introduces another very important variable for very old Bordeaux.

On 23 Nov 2005 09:07:08 -0800
" > wrote:

]
] Leo Bueno wrote:
] > The observation by Cwdjrxyz about the possibility of batch to batch
] > variability being responsible for reports of oxidized 1975 Mouton got
] > me thinking about this issue generally.
] >
] > I have in the past opened bottles side by side specifically to look
] > for inter-bottle variability, which I have readily found and other
] > experienced tasters confirmed. This is a no-brainer given that
] > sometimes one bottle will be clearly corked while others are not; all
] > it takes is one tainted cork.
] >
] > Variability can be attributed of course to several other factors.
] > Because I have purchased the test bottles from the same retailer,
] > storage and handling can be likely ruled out.
] >
] > So, that leaves me to wonder how significant batch to batch
] > variability is.
] >
] > Intuitively, a winery that makes 185,000 cases of a product (e.g., the
] > 90-point Wine Spectator rated 2000 Columbia Crest Chardonnay Columbia
] > Valley Grand Estates) cannot make the stuff in one try.
] >
] > So, intuitively again, no matter how hard the wine makers try, they
] > cannot produce batches that are identical.
] >
] > Which then leads to the question, is the wine in each batch really the
] > same stuff?
] >
] >
] > On 20 Nov 2005 16:34:20 -0800, "
] > > wrote:
] >
] > >There have been tasting notes for some bottles of Mouton 75 that proved
] > >a bit oxidized. Of course, at 30 years, some bottle variation is to be
] > >expected. I do not know if the less good bottles had been stored
] > >properly, if they had a cork problem, or if Mouton 75 was bottled in
] > >several batches that may not have been quite the same.
]
] In the past, many top Bordeaux wines were bottled over a considerable
] period of time. This does not seem to be as common anymore. Several
] types of grapes may be used to make red Bordeaux. Usually each type is
] kept apart until barrel aging is completed. Then it is decided how much
] of each wine to put in the final blend. Barrels not up to par or in
] excess of needs for the blend get sold as something else, perhaps as a
] second label, or are sold as bulk wine if really foul. On the other
] hand, many German wines are made in many batches. There can be several
] batches of auslese, for example. However every different batch must be
] submitted for evaluation and must display an AP number on the label
] that is given to that batch of wine. And a top batch of wine, such as a
] J.J. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Long Gold Capsule auslese, can cost very
] much more than the "normal" batches of this wine.
]

I can think of one Chateauneuf du Pape off-hand that bottles in
different batches: Dom. du Grand Tinel. They keep a stock of
older vintage unbottled, in large old oak vats, stored in a very
cold room. These vats are then bottled up as the market will
bear. The advantage is of course the availability of older wine
kept in impeccable conditions; however this will not have the
same characteristics as a well stored example of the initial
bottling. I have tasted the '75 from the original run in mag,
to my palate it was fresher than the same wine bottled in '90.
If I understood correctly the blend was exactly the same, though.

-E

] Unless you have an accurate, complete history of the storage of a wine
] and who bottled it, all you can do is speculate about what may cause
] bottle variation. Bottle variation often becomes more apparent as wine
] ages. One only has to look at M. Broadbent's tasting notes for older
] top wines. He has tasted many top Bordeaux reds multiple times, and
] even the top wines can be rather variable. In the past it was quite
] common to ship red Bordeaux in barrel to the UK and other countries,
] where wine merchants bottled the wine when they thought it was ready.
] This introduces another very important variable for very old Bordeaux.
]


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

My two (euro) cents,

on june, 2005, I purchased two bottles of Mercurey "La Plante Chassey" 2002
Derain which I happened to love. One month later, I purchased a 12 bottles
case from the very same retailer. Each bottle I have opened showed
differently to those first bottles. And each bottle from the latest
purchase has had some sort of carbonic in the mouth, which I feel annoying.

S.

"Santiago" > wrote in message
.. .
> My two (euro) cents,
>
> on june, 2005, I purchased two bottles of Mercurey "La Plante Chassey"
> 2002
> Derain which I happened to love. One month later, I purchased a 12 bottles
> case from the very same retailer. Each bottle I have opened showed
> differently to those first bottles. And each bottle from the latest
> purchase has had some sort of carbonic in the mouth, which I feel
> annoying.

Hola Santiago -

I've observed a similar effect in supposedly "still" wine before. Usually
it's been due to malolactic fermentation in the bottle that wasn't completed
in the winery.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

"Tom S" > wrote in
et:
>
> Hola Santiago -
>
> I've observed a similar effect in supposedly "still" wine before.
> Usually it's been due to malolactic fermentation in the bottle that
> wasn't completed in the winery.
>
> Tom S
> www.chateauburbank.com
>


Hi Tom,

thanks for the explanation. Do you think there is some way to approach
this? will it integrate with bottle time? decanting?

Best,

S.

Emery Davis wrote:

> I can think of one Chateauneuf du Pape off-hand that bottles in
> different batches: Dom. du Grand Tinel. They keep a stock of
> older vintage unbottled, in large old oak vats, stored in a very
> cold room. These vats are then bottled up as the market will
> bear. The advantage is of course the availability of older wine
> kept in impeccable conditions; however this will not have the
> same characteristics as a well stored example of the initial
> bottling. I have tasted the '75 from the original run in mag,
> to my palate it was fresher than the same wine bottled in '90.
> If I understood correctly the blend was exactly the same, though.

Emery,
I believe that the practice of "bottling on demand" was fairly
commonplace in CNdP until fairly recently. I remember Parker railing
against Clos du Mont Olivet for the practice perhaps 10 years ago.
Still, 15 years is *long* time for a wine to spend en foudre.

Mark Lipton

"Santiago" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi Tom,
>
> thanks for the explanation. Do you think there is some way to approach
> this? will it integrate with bottle time? decanting?

I suspect that you will have a lot of leakers in that case of wine, caused
by the pressure that develops during ML that has no place to go. The wine
will also throw a bit more sediment in the bottle during ML.

One of the first reds I ever tasted was the 1970 Van Loben Sels Oakville
Cabernet. It suffered from the same affliction. The bottles were all
leakers and the wine was slightly fizzy on the palate at first. After
splash decanting and a bit of aeration the dissolved CO2 dissipated and the
wine was really wonderful.

I'd say you'll need to decant the wine from whatever sediment is in there
before serving. To get rid of the CO2 in such cases (as in the barrel
sample of 2005 Chardonnay I'm sipping on at the moment) I use a Vac-U-Vin.
Decant the wine into another, larger bottle, pump as much air out of the
bottle as you can with the Vac-U-Vin, and tap on the side of the bottle near
the bottom with a hard object, like a spoon or the back side of a knife.
The sound waves in the wine will nucleate the release of whatever dissolved
gases are in the wine and you will observe the wine to be bubbling and
releasing gas to the vacuum. Pump some more gas out of the bottle and
repeat a few times. Release the vacuum and serve.

BTW, this trick works much better on wine at room temperature.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:42:30 GMT
Mark Lipton > wrote:

] Emery Davis wrote:
]
] > I can think of one Chateauneuf du Pape off-hand that bottles in
] > different batches: Dom. du Grand Tinel. They keep a stock of
] > older vintage unbottled, in large old oak vats, stored in a very
] > cold room. These vats are then bottled up as the market will
] > bear. The advantage is of course the availability of older wine
] > kept in impeccable conditions; however this will not have the
] > same characteristics as a well stored example of the initial
] > bottling. I have tasted the '75 from the original run in mag,
] > to my palate it was fresher than the same wine bottled in '90.
] > If I understood correctly the blend was exactly the same, though.
]
] Emery,
] I believe that the practice of "bottling on demand" was fairly
] commonplace in CNdP until fairly recently. I remember Parker railing
] against Clos du Mont Olivet for the practice perhaps 10 years ago.
] Still, 15 years is *long* time for a wine to spend en foudre.
]

Hi Mark,

Yes, you'd think so. Actually I wonder if they still do this at Grand Tinel,
since the price of CdP has gone through the roof. I haven't been
there in a few years. Anyway that was certainly the practice.

One of my worst wine experiences ever came from an old barrel. A
friend of mine had a connection in Bandol (sorry can't remember the
domaine, I'm not sure it wasn't strictly home production anyway) who
gave him a barrel of '87 in exchange for some art work. This was
in '95 or so, IIRC. He passed by our then vacation house in the
Drome with this in his trunk, and on the first night of the visit
we consumed God only knows how many pitchers. The next day
all 4 of us (seasoned campaigners all) were violently hung over,
I mean really incapacitated. The smell of the stuff was enough
to send me retching -- although thankfully I got over it a few
days later! No more of that Bandol was consumed, although
he left us many liters... The only similar reaction I've had was
to an over-consumption of Southern Comfort, and that was
as a teenager. (Come to think of it the smell of Southern Comfort
still gives me the shivers today. Even the thought of it makes me
a bit queasy...)

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

> To get rid of the CO2 in such cases (as in the barrel
> sample of 2005 Chardonnay I'm sipping on at the moment) I use a Vac-U-Vin.
> Decant the wine into another, larger bottle, pump as much air out of the
> bottle as you can with the Vac-U-Vin, and tap on the side of the bottle near
> the bottom with a hard object, like a spoon or the back side of a knife.
> The sound waves in the wine will nucleate the release of whatever dissolved
> gases are in the wine and you will observe the wine to be bubbling and
> releasing gas to the vacuum.

How much of the nose goes up when you do this? I ask because when I
pour leftover wine into split bottles (filling them) and try to pump
down the half inch of ullage, I get bubbles right away, so I've
refrained from doing that, figuring I'm sucking out the volitile organics.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
> How much of the nose goes up when you do this? I ask because when I pour
> leftover wine into split bottles (filling them) and try to pump down the
> half inch of ullage, I get bubbles right away, so I've refrained from
> doing that, figuring I'm sucking out the volitile organics.

I'm sure you are, but only a very little bit. I don't worry about it.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com