Hi All,

My first Harvest day was great fun. For you long time experts I'm sure
it is old hat, but as a newby it was amazing. Started early morning
and was finished about 11:30 so it took less time than I thought. The
must was at 55 degrees when we finished crushing. It should be about
60 gal so I added 11 grams of Pot Met to start with and then thought I
would test with the Chemetric Titret kit and couldn't get a reading for
some reason. I'll take it over to one of the many valley labs Mon AM
to see what the levels are and adjust as needed. The Brix level was 25
and the pH was 4.71 according to my meter. I pitched yeast last night
with 60g of Pasteur Red and added half the Fermaid K recommended. Is
there anything else I should be doing at this point, besides punching
down the cap when it kicks off? Thanks, in advance, for any advice.

Regards,

Rick

PS: At the risk of boring anyone with my home movies, I have a web
pictorial of the havest at the link below.

http://www.arpageone.net/harvest.html

" the pH was 4.71 according to my meter."

Suggestion; double and triple check the calibration of that meter. Then take
a couple more readings of the must. If it really is 4.7, you might want to
also test Total Acidity (titratable). If that is also low, yu might want to
start considering acid adjustments.

Ric wrote:
> " the pH was 4.71 according to my meter."
>
> Suggestion; double and triple check the calibration of that meter. Then take
> a couple more readings of the must. If it really is 4.7, you might want to
> also test Total Acidity (titratable). If that is also low, yu might want to
> start considering acid adjustments.

Hi Ric, thanks for the response. I read in your other post the 1g yeast
per gallon isn't necessary, but shouldn't hurt I suppose. On the acid,
sorry that was a typo, I reread my message before posting but missed
the error. The actual pH was 3.71.. would you add acid? I'll have the
lab check that reading as well tomorrow.

Thanks,

Rick

"EnoNut" > wrote in message
ps.com...

> PS: At the risk of boring anyone with my home movies, I have a web
> pictorial of the havest at the link below.

Those are great pictures. Thanks for posting.

I think you are making a red wine, yes? In which case, 3.7 is pretty
typical; whether you adjust or not depends on taste, style, and total
acidity. Most books will tell you to adjust it towards 3.5, but I would
suggest that you be cautious; test the TA first; if that is low, maybe
adjust it a little. Then wait until you can taste test it. Don't over-react
to just one nunmber.

Good luck!

> Hi Ric, thanks for the response. I read in your other post the 1g yeast
> per gallon isn't necessary, but shouldn't hurt I suppose. On the acid,
> sorry that was a typo, I reread my message before posting but missed
> the error. The actual pH was 3.71.. would you add acid? I'll have the
> lab check that reading as well tomorrow.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick
>

I also advise testing the TA but a pH of 3.7 is likely to climb to at least
3.9 to 4.0 or above.
True, some people love a high pH wine because it can be drunk early but you
are encouraging wild yeast and wild ML to compete with the sugar. Off
flavors and aromas are also very possible to develop in this pH environment.

Since you are having a lab check your value, I suggest you also see if you
can talk to a technician at the lab and get their opinion.

I harvested my Merlot today in my backyard vineyard. My pH was 3.7 and I
added tartaric. Others may disagree and have other experiences but I have
made horrible wine in the past by not lowering my pH. It tasted fine at
bottling but got worse instead of better as it aged. If you don't know
anything about mercaptans and spoilage organisms not adjusting your pH might
be a way to get some first hand experience.




"Ric" > wrote in message
et...
>I think you are making a red wine, yes? In which case, 3.7 is pretty
>typical; whether you adjust or not depends on taste, style, and total
>acidity. Most books will tell you to adjust it towards 3.5, but I would
>suggest that you be cautious; test the TA first; if that is low, maybe
>adjust it a little. Then wait until you can taste test it. Don't over-react
>to just one nunmber.
>
> Good luck!
>
>> Hi Ric, thanks for the response. I read in your other post the 1g yeast
>> per gallon isn't necessary, but shouldn't hurt I suppose. On the acid,
>> sorry that was a typo, I reread my message before posting but missed
>> the error. The actual pH was 3.71.. would you add acid? I'll have the
>> lab check that reading as well tomorrow.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rick
>>
>
>

> Others may disagree and have other experiences but I have
> made horrible wine in the past by not lowering my pH. It tasted fine at
> bottling but got worse instead of better as it aged. If you don't know
> anything about mercaptans and spoilage organisms not adjusting your pH might
> be a way to get some first hand experience.

Thanks for your input Paul, I would definitely not want to have first
hand experience with ruining a 60 gal barrel. I'll get the results
later today or in the AM. It is definitely kicking off fermentation
though, so I hope it isn't too late to adjust to a 'safe' level.

Rick

Paul E. Lehmann wrote "I harvested my Merlot today in my backyard vineyard."

Paul- where are you located? I've been thinking about adding Merlot to my
vineyard but I'm not sure they can survive here in the Kansas City area.
Chardonnay, C. Franc and C. Sauvignon are doing fine after 4 years.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

I took the sample to a lab in St Helena called ETS. Nice folks, I
asked for Total SO2, pH and TA. So this is the levels on my 60 gal of
fermenting Cab Sauv fruit.

TA = .40
pH = 3.63
Total Sulpher Dioxide = 9 mg/L

It looks like I need to add Tartaric Acid and Pot Met. I originally
added 11g of Pot Met at crush. Don't I want this to be in the 40 ppm
realm? It should have been 30 ppm based on 60 gal and 11g Pt Met. How
much Pot Met and acid should I add? Does anyone have an easy way to
calculate the amounts?

Regards,

Rick

EnoNut wrote:
> I took the sample to a lab in St Helena called ETS. Nice folks, I
> asked for Total SO2, pH and TA. So this is the levels on my 60 gal of
> fermenting Cab Sauv fruit.
>
> TA = .40
> pH = 3.63
> Total Sulpher Dioxide = 9 mg/L
>
> It looks like I need to add Tartaric Acid and Pot Met. I originally
> added 11g of Pot Met at crush. Don't I want this to be in the 40 ppm
> realm? It should have been 30 ppm based on 60 gal and 11g Pt Met. How
> much Pot Met and acid should I add? Does anyone have an easy way to
> calculate the amounts?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rick

First of, _don't_ add any meta! Once the fermentation starts, it has no
effect other than increasing your total SO2 level.

Second, I would really question the TA level, for a Napa Cab with this
pH, it seems way too low. If you know some winemakers in your area,
just give them a taste sample for a quick sanity check, they should be
able to tell you if the acid is that low.

Pp

> Second, I would really question the TA level, for a Napa Cab with this
> pH, it seems way too low. If you know some winemakers in your area,
> just give them a taste sample for a quick sanity check, they should be
> able to tell you if the acid is that low.
>
> Pp

Hmmm.. thought I wanted the sulfite level to stay up around 40ppm, geez
the more I try to learn the less i think i know :-)

On the vintner I wish I did.. just moved here a couple years ago and
haven't really met any winemakers here. I'll check around, maybe a
friend of a friend or something.

I know labs aren't infallable, but this place was HUGE with people
scurrying all over at this time of the year. Their site is he
http://www.etslabs.com Three analytes was $ 54.00, seemed high, but my
point is that I would trust their number more than mine. With my swirl
in a plastic cup titration it appeared to be around .6 .

Should this taste really tannic at this time? The brix is still way up
there, but it tastes much like a regular drinking grape juice by the
bottle at a grocery store.

Thanks for your input,

Rick

1. If your must is still in primary fermentation, I'd not add any KMS myself
(crude short-hand for potassium metabisulfite). Wait until you press off
into secondary, then add sufficient to get your ppm to about 30 ppm. If you
add it now, you may only stall the fermentation. But get it in right away at
the next stage to forestall any bacterial prblems - especially with that low
acid. I like to make up a 10% solution of KMS (with distilled water), and
add 2/3 ml. per gallon to move the ppm apx. 10 ppm. Let is stabilize a
couple days, then do a free SO2 test. Repeat until you get it to where you
want it.
2. The pH is OK, but that is a really low TA reading. Not unbelievable, but
surprising. I'd call the lab and ask them to confirm their confidence.
Assuming it is accurate, you might want to start nudging your acidity with
tartaric acid. You can do this slowly, and in increments over the next
weeks. Rule of thumb is to add 3.8 grams of tartaric acid per gallon to move
the TA by .1%. But don't try to make a huge adjustment all at once. Try
moving it in fractions of that amount. Nudge it towards your goal, and keep
an eye on both the TA and the pH. Don't be guided by just one number. Others
here will have great (and better) suggestions; for my own part, I would
probably not want to adjust acid more than taking it to .55 TA, or 3.5 pH -
whichever comes first. And I would likely setle for a pH of 3.6, and/or a TA
of .5 - if it meant not messing with the wine too much.

It occurs to me that you might get caught running back and forth to that lab
a lot. Ever consider getting some basic lab gear so you can test your own TA
and free SO2?

PS - what does a test like that cost you at the lab?




>I took the sample to a lab in St Helena called ETS. Nice folks, I
> asked for Total SO2, pH and TA. So this is the levels on my 60 gal of
> fermenting Cab Sauv fruit.
>
> TA = .40
> pH = 3.63
> Total Sulpher Dioxide = 9 mg/L
>
> It looks like I need to add Tartaric Acid and Pot Met. I originally
> added 11g of Pot Met at crush. Don't I want this to be in the 40 ppm
> realm? It should have been 30 ppm based on 60 gal and 11g Pt Met. How
> much Pot Met and acid should I add? Does anyone have an easy way to
> calculate the amounts?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rick
>

Thanks Ric for your input. The Lab charged $ 54 for three analytes.
TA, pH and total S02. I have the basic swirl in a plastic cup TA kit,
that showed it to be around .6 TA. My pH meter was varying wildly and
I couldn't get it to settle down so I didn't trust it. I bought the
Chemetrics SO2 test where you use the ampules that have the valve and
pull must liquid in to titrate. The indicator always turned clear
before it got to the bottom 100 scale on the ampule, so not sure what
is going on there. I have some research laboratory background and
followed the directions exactly.

I just talked to a friend of a friend vintner. She is relatively small
commercial production and in the middle of her own crush. She said all
the Napa fruit is coming in with very low TA levels this year due to
the really high temps and super wet spring. She has had a 25 lb bag to
tartaric she's been working with for 4 years now, but used it up and is
almost through another 25 lb bag so far this year and she is still
crushing. I guess that makes me feel a bit better, I'll wait a few
days and maybe add 1/4 lb or so tartaric and check pH and TA again.
She said a quick back of envelope calculation would add about 1/2 lb
total, but also said to be really careful of pH and not let that go
below 3.4 to insure ML fermentation.

Rick - Look up Lum's winemaking site. This is the best winemaking
information around as far as I'm concerned. If you make wine according to
these instructions it will be good;
http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/

"Hmmm.. thought I wanted the sulfite level to stay up around 40ppm, geez
the more I try to learn the less i think i know :-)"

~unless you cold soaked your Cab there really was no reason to add any K
metabisulfite or Campden. Just add the yeast and let it go. For sure do
not add any K metabisulfite during fermentation.
>
"I know labs aren't infallable, but this place was HUGE with people
> scurrying all over at this time of the year. Their site is he
> http://www.etslabs.com Three analytes was $ 54.00, seemed high, but my
> point is that I would trust their number more than mine. With my swirl
> in a plastic cup titration it appeared to be around .6 ."

~Your $54.00 is about 1/3 to a good pH meter and acid titration set up.
Look at these sites;
http://www.cynmar.com
Cynmar is a good place to buy things like buretts ($14.50 and up) and other
glass ware.
http://www.piwine.com/
Presque Isle is a good place to buy chemicals and test reagents. Also,
titration kits.
http://www.omega.com
Omega is a good place for things like pH meters. Check out the PHH222
($150) meter. It has a replaceable electrode that can be placedright in the
titration beaker. I've used one for over 5 years with good results.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Rick,
If you're often in the Santa Rosa area, The Beverage People, our local
wine and beermaking supplies store on Piner Road, have a much less
expensive analysis for hobbyists, albeit with wider error bars than ETS
and Vinquiry.

Gene

EnoNut wrote:
> I took the sample to a lab in St Helena called ETS. Nice folks, I
> asked for Total SO2, pH and TA. So this is the levels on my 60 gal of
> fermenting Cab Sauv fruit.
>
> TA = .40
> pH = 3.63
> Total Sulpher Dioxide = 9 mg/L
>
> It looks like I need to add Tartaric Acid and Pot Met. I originally
> added 11g of Pot Met at crush. Don't I want this to be in the 40 ppm
> realm? It should have been 30 ppm based on 60 gal and 11g Pt Met. How
> much Pot Met and acid should I add? Does anyone have an easy way to
> calculate the amounts?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rick
>

Thanks Gene, I should have thought of that, I bought the crusher
destemmer from them. I titrate this as best i can and still see the
color shift at around .8 ml which should be around .6 TA. I might just
take it to them and see what they get. Or.. if you live in or around
Santa Rosa, are you interested in testing/tasting the must? I'd bring
you a nice bottle of wine of your favorite style (commercial) for the
trouble.

Rick

I do live in the Santa Rosa area, and I'm in the middle of crush at a
local winery... so finding a free moment is not easy at this time.
I would trust ETS TA numbers, so I think you would be safe going up in
0.1% TA increments as much as 0.2% total like earlier suggested. You
can do that on a small sample, and see if you can sense the difference
in 'tartness' added by the tartaric acid at 0.5% TA and 0.6% TA. I
sense a noticeable shift from just sweetness at 0.3-0.4% TA to a slight
tartness under the sweet just beginning when I hit 0.6%TA. Even if you
do go up 0.2% TA now, you can get back down a bit later by doing cold
stabilization, which will drop out some of the tartaric acid and lower
your pH a tad at the same time. You have some freedom to experiment.
If you have the luxury of being able to do a split fermentation, you
could experiment at two or three different TA levels, and see which you
like better. Even professional winemakers have some difference in
opinion about the optimum TA for a given wine.

Gene

EnoNut wrote:

> Thanks Gene, I should have thought of that, I bought the crusher
> destemmer from them. I titrate this as best i can and still see the
> color shift at around .8 ml which should be around .6 TA. I might just
> take it to them and see what they get. Or.. if you live in or around
> Santa Rosa, are you interested in testing/tasting the must? I'd bring
> you a nice bottle of wine of your favorite style (commercial) for the
> trouble.
>
> Rick
>

"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> Paul E. Lehmann wrote "I harvested my Merlot today in my backyard
> vineyard."
>
> Paul- where are you located? I've been thinking about adding Merlot to my
> vineyard but I'm not sure they can survive here in the Kansas City area.
> Chardonnay, C. Franc and C. Sauvignon are doing fine after 4 years.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA

I live in Central Maryland in the tri state area of Maryland, Virginia and
West Virginia - about 7 miles East of Harpers Ferry, West Virginia and about
15 miles west of Frederick, Maryland. So far, I have not had any lost vines
due to cold temperatures. There is quite a bit of Merlot grown around here.
Cabernet Franc is the favorite red grown around here. I would think that
since your Chardonnay and C. Franc and C. Sauvignon are doing fine that the
Merlot would work also. It definately rippens earlier than the Cabernet
Sauvignon. and about 10 days to two weeks earlier than the Cabernet Franc.

Eno,

What color did your wine turn out to be?

Bob


EnoNut wrote:
> Thanks Gene, I should have thought of that, I bought the crusher
> destemmer from them. I titrate this as best i can and still see the
> color shift at around .8 ml which should be around .6 TA. I might just
> take it to them and see what they get. Or.. if you live in or around
> Santa Rosa, are you interested in testing/tasting the must? I'd bring
> you a nice bottle of wine of your favorite style (commercial) for the
> trouble.
>
> Rick

The Cabernet Sauvignion is a red and since it was such a low pH it is
coming in very much on the purple side of a cab. It has been really
cool here so we are still fermenting. The must stayed around 70
degrees throughout the fermentation. The sg is around 1.022 and it's
really starting to taste like wine. I'm a little concerned that it has
been on the skins now for 12 days, but it probably isn't a problem.

I would like to press on Sunday, since I will have a press available
and technical assistance. The specific gravity should down around 1.01
if it continues the same. Here are a couple of questions..

Is there a problem pressing, pumping to the barrel and using a bung
with a trap prior to completing fermentation?

Is now a good time to innoculate with the ML culture?

Without paying for another set of lab results, what should I do about
adding sulfite to the wine... when and how much for a 60 gal barrel?

Thanks,

Eno

"Is there a problem pressing, pumping to the barrel and using a bung
with a trap prior to completing fermentation? "

No. Actually you should do that as soon as possible.

"Is now a good time to innoculate with the ML culture?"

Actually, you should have added it about 7 days ago but with the yeast
your using and the PH that I think you may be dealing with, I have a
feeling you don't need to add it at all. MLF has probably already
kicked off and after you press and pump it into the barrell, I wouldn't
add the SO2 until after the MLF is done. I would give it about a month.
I hope you added enough tartaric acid before fermentation kicked off so
you don't have to add any acid now. Acid added now will taste "fake" .
If the wine that you press is very purple that usually indicates a high
PH and possibly a flabby wine. Good wines are claret red.

Bob

Without paying for another set of lab results, what should I do about
adding sulfite to the wine... when and how much for a 60 gal barrel?
EnoNut wrote:
> The Cabernet Sauvignion is a red and since it was such a low pH it is
> coming in very much on the purple side of a cab. It has been really
> cool here so we are still fermenting. The must stayed around 70
> degrees throughout the fermentation. The sg is around 1.022 and it's
> really starting to taste like wine. I'm a little concerned that it has
> been on the skins now for 12 days, but it probably isn't a problem.
>
> I would like to press on Sunday, since I will have a press available
> and technical assistance. The specific gravity should down around 1.01
> if it continues the same. Here are a couple of questions..
>
> Is there a problem pressing, pumping to the barrel and using a bung
> with a trap prior to completing fermentation?
>
> Is now a good time to innoculate with the ML culture?
>
> Without paying for another set of lab results, what should I do about
> adding sulfite to the wine... when and how much for a 60 gal barrel?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eno

Thanks for your input Bob, I did add 3 oz of acid but I'm not sure it
was enough. I was under the impression that acid could be added at
pretty much any time, so didn't feel under the gun. This is my first
try with fruit and although I'll probably have 300 bottles of not the
best wine, I'll pralee love it cause it's my baby :-) .

Next year I'll be sure to have full 'fermentation plan' in place
before I start and the necessary techniques and equipment to do better
testing. I wouldn't want to make 'Screaming Eagle' on my first try
anyway cause then there would be no place to go :-) . (I can see
Heidi's house from my deck maybe... nah!)