Good afternoon-

I am racking my Muscats and when I siphoned one off (get the mouthful)
it had an aftertaste- I'm reminded of when my wife cooked Cod in the
microwave.

It's rather fishy tasting, the best I can describe it.

I found this page when searching for fish smells-
http://www.honeycreek.us/winefaults.htm
and it faults Butyric acid bacteria infection.

1) Is there a way to stop this ? (SO2).
2) Anyway to clean it up?

3) Where the **** did I get it from....

Thanks in advance-

Jason

wrote:

> Good afternoon-
>
> I am racking my Muscats and when I siphoned one off (get the mouthful)
> it had an aftertaste- I'm reminded of when my wife cooked Cod in the
> microwave.
>
> It's rather fishy tasting, the best I can describe it.
>
> I found this page when searching for fish smells-
> http://www.honeycreek.us/winefaults.htm
> and it faults Butyric acid bacteria infection.
>
> 1) Is there a way to stop this ? (SO2).
> 2) Anyway to clean it up?
>
> 3) Where the **** did I get it from....
>
> Thanks in advance-
>
> Jason
>
If my memory serves me correctly 71B has the ability to metabolise malic
acid to lactic acid. This would raise the pH. Muscat, particularly warm
climate can have high pH which favours bacteria. Have you added SO2.I
would add 50ppm straight away to start with. Check the pH, I bet it is
about 4. Add a lot of acid if it is 4, like 5 grams per litre. Then
chill to drop out the acid as bitatrate and get the acidity to an
aceptable level, the add some sugar prior to bottling to balance the
acidity, and sterile filter if possible though 0.45um membrane on the
way to the bottle to make sure it is sterile and yeast free. Add 200ppm
sorbate as well.

Not sure if this will work to clean it up, but I suspect that your story
is a good example of the importance of checking pH of the juice and
wine, and always adjust early.

Bacterial are every where, from the air, to your large intestine, and
your nasal passages. Low pH in wine is bad for them, they do not like
pH's less than 3.5.

Good Luck,

James.

Thanks James-

They started out just fine and have been under airlock since- wrapped
in a blanket.

It's odd I santized all the gear first and ONLY the muscats are showing
this problem- both the 71B and the Cote de Blanc. I'm wondering if
it's a bad batch. Everything else is fine (including the EC118 I
purchased a week earlier).

I brought the SO2 up to 60ppm and I'll do the pH tommorow.

Jason

James wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Good afternoon-
> >
> > I am racking my Muscats and when I siphoned one off (get the mouthful)
> > it had an aftertaste- I'm reminded of when my wife cooked Cod in the
> > microwave.
> >
> > It's rather fishy tasting, the best I can describe it.
> >
> > I found this page when searching for fish smells-
> > http://www.honeycreek.us/winefaults.htm
> > and it faults Butyric acid bacteria infection.
> >
> > 1) Is there a way to stop this ? (SO2).
> > 2) Anyway to clean it up?
> >
> > 3) Where the **** did I get it from....
> >
> > Thanks in advance-
> >
> > Jason
> >
> If my memory serves me correctly 71B has the ability to metabolise malic
> acid to lactic acid. This would raise the pH. Muscat, particularly warm
> climate can have high pH which favours bacteria. Have you added SO2.I
> would add 50ppm straight away to start with. Check the pH, I bet it is
> about 4. Add a lot of acid if it is 4, like 5 grams per litre. Then
> chill to drop out the acid as bitatrate and get the acidity to an
> aceptable level, the add some sugar prior to bottling to balance the
> acidity, and sterile filter if possible though 0.45um membrane on the
> way to the bottle to make sure it is sterile and yeast free. Add 200ppm
> sorbate as well.
>
> Not sure if this will work to clean it up, but I suspect that your story
> is a good example of the importance of checking pH of the juice and
> wine, and always adjust early.
>
> Bacterial are every where, from the air, to your large intestine, and
> your nasal passages. Low pH in wine is bad for them, they do not like
> pH's less than 3.5.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> James.

Checked the pH twice this morning. Both Muscats come in at 3.0- and I
verified the settings against 2 control solutions (7.01 and 4.01). So
unless my probe is giving me problems I'm going to have to look
elsewhere.

For whatever reason I always seem to have low pH wines. They come up
with time, but for a long while they like to mock me down in the 2.9 to
3.2 range.

Jason

James wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Good afternoon-
> >
> > I am racking my Muscats and when I siphoned one off (get the mouthful)
> > it had an aftertaste- I'm reminded of when my wife cooked Cod in the
> > microwave.
> >
> > It's rather fishy tasting, the best I can describe it.
> >
> > I found this page when searching for fish smells-
> > http://www.honeycreek.us/winefaults.htm
> > and it faults Butyric acid bacteria infection.
> >
> > 1) Is there a way to stop this ? (SO2).
> > 2) Anyway to clean it up?
> >
> > 3) Where the **** did I get it from....
> >
> > Thanks in advance-
> >
> > Jason
> >
> If my memory serves me correctly 71B has the ability to metabolise malic
> acid to lactic acid. This would raise the pH. Muscat, particularly warm
> climate can have high pH which favours bacteria. Have you added SO2.I
> would add 50ppm straight away to start with. Check the pH, I bet it is
> about 4. Add a lot of acid if it is 4, like 5 grams per litre. Then
> chill to drop out the acid as bitatrate and get the acidity to an
> aceptable level, the add some sugar prior to bottling to balance the
> acidity, and sterile filter if possible though 0.45um membrane on the
> way to the bottle to make sure it is sterile and yeast free. Add 200ppm
> sorbate as well.
>
> Not sure if this will work to clean it up, but I suspect that your story
> is a good example of the importance of checking pH of the juice and
> wine, and always adjust early.
>
> Bacterial are every where, from the air, to your large intestine, and
> your nasal passages. Low pH in wine is bad for them, they do not like
> pH's less than 3.5.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> James.

Jason,
Sounds weird. I think that acid can be formed from malolactic
fermentation but at a pH that low it sounds like that might not be it.

71B does metabolize some malic but I use it on almost all my northern
whites and never saw this. That it _tastes_ like fish is odd. I'm not
sure this is an excess butyric acid issue. See if this link helps at
all:

http://www.beveragebusiness.com/bbco...nesto1202.html

You can email Clayton Cone of Lallamand regarding 71B and this issue;
he is a Lalvin yeast expert

Joe


> > > It's rather fishy tasting, the best I can describe it.
> > >
> > > I found this page when searching for fish smells-
> > > http://www.honeycreek.us/winefaults.htm
> > > and it faults Butyric acid bacteria infection.
> > >
> > > 1) Is there a way to stop this ? (SO2).
> > > 2) Anyway to clean it up?
> > >
> > > 3) Where the **** did I get it from....
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance-
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
> > If my memory serves me correctly 71B has the ability to metabolise malic
> > acid to lactic acid. This would raise the pH. Muscat, particularly warm
> > climate can have high pH which favours bacteria. Have you added SO2.I
> > would add 50ppm straight away to start with. Check the pH, I bet it is
> > about 4. Add a lot of acid if it is 4, like 5 grams per litre. Then
> > chill to drop out the acid as bitatrate and get the acidity to an
> > aceptable level, the add some sugar prior to bottling to balance the
> > acidity, and sterile filter if possible though 0.45um membrane on the
> > way to the bottle to make sure it is sterile and yeast free. Add 200ppm
> > sorbate as well.
> >
> > Not sure if this will work to clean it up, but I suspect that your story
> > is a good example of the importance of checking pH of the juice and
> > wine, and always adjust early.
> >
> > Bacterial are every where, from the air, to your large intestine, and
> > your nasal passages. Low pH in wine is bad for them, they do not like
> > pH's less than 3.5.
> >
> > Good Luck,
> >
> > James.

Thanks Joe.

Tastes Wierd too When I say fishy- I don't mean
fish-mongrel-meat-market fishy. I mean cooked cod smell. Hence my
really really confused state.

Could be a little H2S in there too.

I have 3 muscats going. 1 with EC118 (rather nice but lacking flavour)
and purchased a week prior to the other two. The two additional ones I
bought to experiment with- and both have that cooked- cod aftertaste.
Maybe it was on the lees too long- I guess I have quite a bit to
experiment with now.

If you want a taste I'll save you a vial

I'll email Clayton after the holiday.

Jason

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Jason,
> Sounds weird. I think that acid can be formed from malolactic
> fermentation but at a pH that low it sounds like that might not be it.
>
> 71B does metabolize some malic but I use it on almost all my northern
> whites and never saw this. That it _tastes_ like fish is odd. I'm not
> sure this is an excess butyric acid issue. See if this link helps at
> all:
>
> http://www.beveragebusiness.com/bbco...nesto1202.html
>
> You can email Clayton Cone of Lallamand regarding 71B and this issue;
> he is a Lalvin yeast expert
>
> Joe
>
>
> > > > It's rather fishy tasting, the best I can describe it.
> > > >
> > > > I found this page when searching for fish smells-
> > > > http://www.honeycreek.us/winefaults.htm
> > > > and it faults Butyric acid bacteria infection.
> > > >
> > > > 1) Is there a way to stop this ? (SO2).
> > > > 2) Anyway to clean it up?
> > > >
> > > > 3) Where the **** did I get it from....
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance-
> > > >
> > > > Jason
> > > >
> > > If my memory serves me correctly 71B has the ability to metabolise malic
> > > acid to lactic acid. This would raise the pH. Muscat, particularly warm
> > > climate can have high pH which favours bacteria. Have you added SO2.I
> > > would add 50ppm straight away to start with. Check the pH, I bet it is
> > > about 4. Add a lot of acid if it is 4, like 5 grams per litre. Then
> > > chill to drop out the acid as bitatrate and get the acidity to an
> > > aceptable level, the add some sugar prior to bottling to balance the
> > > acidity, and sterile filter if possible though 0.45um membrane on the
> > > way to the bottle to make sure it is sterile and yeast free. Add 200ppm
> > > sorbate as well.
> > >
> > > Not sure if this will work to clean it up, but I suspect that your story
> > > is a good example of the importance of checking pH of the juice and
> > > wine, and always adjust early.
> > >
> > > Bacterial are every where, from the air, to your large intestine, and
> > > your nasal passages. Low pH in wine is bad for them, they do not like
> > > pH's less than 3.5.
> > >
> > > Good Luck,
> > >
> > > James.

> I have 3 muscats going. 1 with EC118 (rather nice but lacking flavour)
> and purchased a week prior to the other two. The two additional ones I
> bought to experiment with- and both have that cooked- cod aftertaste.
> Maybe it was on the lees too long- I guess I have quite a bit to
> experiment with now.
>
I use 71B a lot and it's actually better at preserving or creating
fruitiness; it could be it was on the lees too long.

Joe

Anything to take care of awine that was on the lees too long? I racked
the first time after 3 weeks when it had finally dropped/clear...

Jason

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > I have 3 muscats going. 1 with EC118 (rather nice but lacking flavour)
> > and purchased a week prior to the other two. The two additional ones I
> > bought to experiment with- and both have that cooked- cod aftertaste.
> > Maybe it was on the lees too long- I guess I have quite a bit to
> > experiment with now.
> >
> I use 71B a lot and it's actually better at preserving or creating
> fruitiness; it could be it was on the lees too long.
>
> Joe

3 weeks is not a long time, but Margalit tells you how to deal with
hydrogen sulfide and mercaptans pretty well. I'm pretty sure if you
Google mercaptan in the archives you will find the process; one of us
had to post it at some point. I can again if it's not there. You do a
small scale test with glasses of wine and ascorbic acid and copper
sulfite, if the smell goes away you know what to do.

Joe

wrote:
> Anything to take care of awine that was on the lees too long? I racked
> the first time after 3 weeks when it had finally dropped/clear...
>
> Jason
>
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > > I have 3 muscats going. 1 with EC118 (rather nice but lacking flavour)
> > > and purchased a week prior to the other two. The two additional ones I
> > > bought to experiment with- and both have that cooked- cod aftertaste.
> > > Maybe it was on the lees too long- I guess I have quite a bit to
> > > experiment with now.
> > >
> > I use 71B a lot and it's actually better at preserving or creating
> > fruitiness; it could be it was on the lees too long.
> >
> > Joe