The UK homebrew market it seems loves PET - better bottles, but doesn't really give a fig for the glass carboy approach.
It's hard to get 5/6g glass carboys here. I have both PET and glass and both seem - to mynovice nose and eyes - seem to
be producing equally good results. Obviously the better bottles win hands down when it comes to sanitation and lifting.

I would love to hear honest opinions based on experience as to whether ultimately glass will survive as the only
fermenting and aging medium when such good alternatives seem to exist. Opinion Oshminion, I'd like to hear evidence.
From where I am standing, I'd need a bloodhounds nose and a hawks eyes to tell the difference in results. If that's the
case, I might as well proceed with PET as it is a darned sight easier to use...

Cheers for you thoughts on this. I look forward to hearing the benefits of your experiece, Jim

One opinion and two pieces of evidence.

Opinion - a season's storage of a Zinfandel did not seem to
detrimentally affect the wine. There was no side-by-side conparison,
so that's why it's an opinion, not fact.

Evidence 1 - Because it's plastic, it's a lot safer to move wine in a
Better Bottle. Less likely to crack and spill the container, and the
container is a lot lighter.

Evidence 2 - Because it's plastic, the sides aren't as rigid and
therefore you get a lot more sloshing of the wine when moving the
containers about as well as more change in volume with temperature
changes. This *might* lead to more aeration and oxygen-introduction to
the wine.

It's all I got, and probably less than you need.

Rob

Thanks for the testimony Rob, its a good start. I'm glad to hear it didn't noticeably taint the Zinfandel, though I
appreciate without a control glass to compare it with there's no telling *exactly* how it would have turned out under
glass.

The sloshing when moving the Better Bottle 5/6Gallon is noticeable I agree, even when making moderate position
adjustments. Random relocations may stir up more sediment too, so the right care shjould be shown when doing.

Has anyone at all done side by side (Better bottle and glass) bulk aging of the same wine? I am guessing for a few
months at a time there will be negligable difference in flavour. I admit I haven't an advanced nose (human version 1.0
model with little experience)

The practicalities in using better bottles over carboys have me fairly convinced that I wouldn't notice a detrimental
difference in flavour. The lack of testimonials to the contrary lead me to think that they must produce results that
are *as good* (if not the same perhaps) as glass.

I wonder if all the real wine 'heads' have stuck to glass just because that is what they have and what they are used to?
If many have tried Better Bottles and found them inferior, you'd have thought there'd be an abundance of testimony
already?

Perhaps the technology is still too new to be have found a market amongst experts who are perhaps trained in traditional
equipment? I can't imagine that many experienced winemakers have found Better Bottles to equal glass and yet haven't
sung their praises too highly in case of peer derision.

Jim

Jim,
Are you trolling or serious with those last few paragraphs? This is a
pretty civil group. Why would a winemaker, experienced or not buy
more carboys if there wasn't a need for more? I have about 20.

I went to their website to find local suppliers but after going to 3 I
know, this product wasn't in their online catalogs.

I have no experience with them but I do recall a discussion here or at
rec.crafts.meadmaking on them a few years ago. Have you Googled this?
I think you would find something on them in rec.crafts.brewing or in
our archives. If the brewers like them for beer you are probably good
to go on whites at least.

I do make a few carboys of Cab and Syrah each year and wouldn't have
any issues testing them. I have an area set up for winemaking so
moving them and disturbing the lees wouldn't be an issue. If I see one
and it's not too pricey I might give it a shot.

Joe

jim > wrote:

> ....

> I wonder if all the real wine 'heads' have stuck to glass just
> because that is what they have and what they are used to? If
> many have tried Better Bottles and found them inferior, you'd
> have thought there'd be an abundance of testimony already?

I recently purchased three more carboys and had the choice of
glass or better bottles. I chose glass because I use carboys
for long-term storage.

Take a look at conical fermenters. They are either stainless
steel or LDPE plastic. Their advantage is you remove the trub
at the end of the primary cycle and continue into the secondary
cycle without racking. LDPE is more than adequate for this.

Better Bottles are made using an upgrade form of PET and,
to the best of my research, are not suited for LT storage
of 9 to 12 months.

The general problem with PET (soda bottles) is that while it
keeps carbonation in, it does not keep oxygen out long-term.
Advances in PET technology has allowed Miller to package beer
in upgraded PET with a shelf life of six months.

If you are making Sherry and don't care about oxidization,
Better Bottles would be terrific.

HDPE plastics have oxygen barriers, but they are still
subject to breakdown due to expansion and contraction.

The reason very few people complain about plastics is the
technology has not reached the stage to risk a $150 batch
of wine in a plastic LT storage container.

Dick

I think I had this experience. I put a Pinot Noir in a Better bottle and
let it bulk age for 5 months. After bottling, I let age another 3
months, now when I open them, I have a brown tinge to the edges, though
the taste and nose are fine. Must drink these soon now. sigh.

So next time I bulk age, it's gonna be in glass.

DAve

Dick Adams wrote:
> jim > wrote:
>
>> ....
>
>> I wonder if all the real wine 'heads' have stuck to glass just
>> because that is what they have and what they are used to? If
>> many have tried Better Bottles and found them inferior, you'd
>> have thought there'd be an abundance of testimony already?
>
> I recently purchased three more carboys and had the choice of
> glass or better bottles. I chose glass because I use carboys
> for long-term storage.
>
> Take a look at conical fermenters. They are either stainless
> steel or LDPE plastic. Their advantage is you remove the trub
> at the end of the primary cycle and continue into the secondary
> cycle without racking. LDPE is more than adequate for this.
>
> Better Bottles are made using an upgrade form of PET and,
> to the best of my research, are not suited for LT storage
> of 9 to 12 months.
>
> The general problem with PET (soda bottles) is that while it
> keeps carbonation in, it does not keep oxygen out long-term.
> Advances in PET technology has allowed Miller to package beer
> in upgraded PET with a shelf life of six months.
>
> If you are making Sherry and don't care about oxidization,
> Better Bottles would be terrific.
>
> HDPE plastics have oxygen barriers, but they are still
> subject to breakdown due to expansion and contraction.
>
> The reason very few people complain about plastics is the
> technology has not reached the stage to risk a $150 batch
> of wine in a plastic LT storage container.
>
> Dick

Glass for me is the best due to sanitation and visibility.
Very easy to clean and very easy to see whats going on inside.

However I have never bought any glass ware.
It has all been given to me.

I always buy PET 5 gallon (UK) containers
I can stack them, they have built in handles and I never use them for
storage in excess of 6 months.
I have had a few near misses of dropping a 6 gallon (UK) glass vessel
full of wine.
Safety and convenience is my biggest factor!

You might ask over at rec.crafts.brewing to see if there has been any
experience one way or the other in brewing.

jim wrote:
> The UK homebrew market it seems loves PET - better bottles, but doesn't really give a fig for the glass carboy approach.
> It's hard to get 5/6g glass carboys here. I have both PET and glass and both seem - to mynovice nose and eyes - seem to
> be producing equally good results. Obviously the better bottles win hands down when it comes to sanitation and lifting.
>
> I would love to hear honest opinions based on experience as to whether ultimately glass will survive as the only
> fermenting and aging medium when such good alternatives seem to exist. Opinion Oshminion, I'd like to hear evidence.
> From where I am standing, I'd need a bloodhounds nose and a hawks eyes to tell the difference in results. If that's the
> case, I might as well proceed with PET as it is a darned sight easier to use...
>
> Cheers for you thoughts on this. I look forward to hearing the benefits of your experiece, Jim
>
>