I thought I understood this. But, in my infinte dumbness, I have
discovered that i truly do not.

I am trying to gain a better understanding of the definition of
primary and secondary fermentation. Specifically, what defines the
seperation between the two. I have read some, and in the last year, i
have made 5 5-gallon batches. All of these were with different
recipes.
So, I understand the basics. Primary fermentation is open to the air,
and yeast converts sugar to alcohol. After some period of time, or
some measurement, the wine is racked off the lees into an airtight
container to continue for several weeks.
I am specifically leaving MLF out of this for right now.
I guess my question is this, what to most of you use as an indicator
for when to transfer wine wine from primary to secondary.

* A fixed period of time?
* A Specific gravity reading?
* A leveling out of the SG at a certain level?

What are we looking for here?

Sorry for the newbie question, but this has been bugging me for a bit
now.

Wayne,
No fixed time.
All fermentations are a little different. Mostly temp and what kind of yeast
you use. Keep an eye on it. I hope you at least keep a loose lid on your
primary. I usually add and airlock around 1.040 since the vigorous
fermentation is slower.

I usually transfer when gravity is around 1.010 or less. There you will
finish fermenting. You will also start to see it clear. after 2 weeks I add
my finings. Wait 2-3 weeks then transfer. Then aging.
Remember this is not a race to make wine as fast as you can.
3 words for this "hobby" ( obsession ).
Patience
Patience
Patience

If you are doing kits, Follow the directions. I make just a few kits. Most
of my wine is fresh Fruit and Juice from California, Italy and Chile

--

Home of the
MOON RIVER BREWERY
and
DELANCO VINEYARDS
"Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
...
>I thought I understood this. But, in my infinte dumbness, I have
> discovered that i truly do not.
>
> I am trying to gain a better understanding of the definition of
> primary and secondary fermentation. Specifically, what defines the
> seperation between the two. I have read some, and in the last year, i
> have made 5 5-gallon batches. All of these were with different
> recipes.
> So, I understand the basics. Primary fermentation is open to the air,
> and yeast converts sugar to alcohol. After some period of time, or
> some measurement, the wine is racked off the lees into an airtight
> container to continue for several weeks.
> I am specifically leaving MLF out of this for right now.
> I guess my question is this, what to most of you use as an indicator
> for when to transfer wine wine from primary to secondary.
>
> * A fixed period of time?
> * A Specific gravity reading?
> * A leveling out of the SG at a certain level?
>
> What are we looking for here?
>
> Sorry for the newbie question, but this has been bugging me for a bit
> now.
>

Wayne Harris wrote:

> I thought I understood this. But, in my
> infinte dumbness, I have discovered that i
> truly do not.
>
> I am trying to gain a better understanding of
> the definition of
> primary and secondary fermentation.
> Specifically, what defines the seperation
> between the two. I have read some, and in the
> last year, i
> have made 5 5-gallon batches. All of these were
> with different recipes.
> So, I understand the basics. Primary
> fermentation is open to the air,
> and yeast converts sugar to alcohol. After some
> period of time, or some measurement, the wine is
> racked off the lees into an airtight container
> to continue for several weeks. I am specifically
> leaving MLF out of this for right now. I guess
> my question is this, what to most of you use as
> an indicator for when to transfer wine wine from
> primary to secondary.
>
> * A fixed period of time?
> * A Specific gravity reading?
> * A leveling out of the SG at a certain level?
>
> What are we looking for here?
>
> Sorry for the newbie question, but this has been
> bugging me for a bit now.

For my red wine production from grapes, I ferment
in primary until cap sink which is usually about
10 days to two weeks. It is essentially through
fermenting at this point. After I press and put
in carboy, I rack off the heavy lees in a couple
days. Most of the time, I will only do one more
racking before bottling.

For my white wines from juice of the grape, I will
typically put in a large enough carboy to allow
for a head of foam and attach an airlock right
away. After fermentation is through, I rack to a
smaller clean carboy.

I think most everyone has slightly different
procedures and some may choose to get into a holy
war debate over which is best.

IMHO, the terms 'primary and secondary fermentation' are somewhat
misleading. There is only one sugar fermentation and, if desired, a
separate malolactic fermentation. Everyhting else is protcol, and
subject to the practices of the winemaker.

For still red wine, I ferment on the skin until the most active sugar
fermentation clows way down and there remains only a few percent sugar.
Usually about 8 to 10 days. I then press, settle, and begin bulk aging.
Somewhere in there the sugar fermentation truly finishes. And somewhere
in there mlf begins - but usually doesn't complete for some time. I
have found it more accurate, in my winemaking logs, to record 'sugar
fermentation' and track it as Brix or SG (and later as residual sugar
as tested by Clinitest), and separately record and track malolactic
fermentation. I do not refer to primary and secondary, as those are not
hard and fast definitions, in my mind.



On 2008-04-16 05:34:47 -0700, Wayne Harris > said:

> I thought I understood this. But, in my infinte dumbness, I have
> discovered that i truly do not.
>
> I am trying to gain a better understanding of the definition of
> primary and secondary fermentation. Specifically, what defines the
> seperation between the two. I have read some, and in the last year, i
> have made 5 5-gallon batches. All of these were with different
> recipes.
> So, I understand the basics. Primary fermentation is open to the air,
> and yeast converts sugar to alcohol. After some period of time, or
> some measurement, the wine is racked off the lees into an airtight
> container to continue for several weeks.
> I am specifically leaving MLF out of this for right now.
> I guess my question is this, what to most of you use as an indicator
> for when to transfer wine wine from primary to secondary.
>
> * A fixed period of time?
> * A Specific gravity reading?
> * A leveling out of the SG at a certain level?
>
> What are we looking for here?
>
> Sorry for the newbie question, but this has been bugging me for a bit
> now.

On Apr 16, 11:01*am, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
> IMHO, the terms 'primary and secondary fermentation' are somewhat
> misleading. There is only one sugar fermentation and, if desired, a
> separate malolactic fermentation. Everyhting else is protcol, and
> subject to the practices of the winemaker.
>
> For still red wine, I ferment on the skin until the most active sugar
> fermentation clows way down and there remains only a few percent sugar.
> Usually about 8 to 10 days. I then press, settle, and begin bulk aging.
> Somewhere in there the sugar fermentation truly finishes. And somewhere
> in there mlf begins - but usually doesn't complete for some time. I
> have found it more accurate, in my winemaking logs, to record 'sugar
> fermentation' and track it as Brix or SG (and later as residual sugar
> as tested by Clinitest), and separately record and track malolactic
> fermentation. I do not refer to primary and secondary, as those are not
> hard and fast definitions, in my mind.
>
> On 2008-04-16 05:34:47 -0700, Wayne Harris > said:
>
>
>
> > I thought I understood this. *But, *in my infinte dumbness, *I have
> > discovered that i truly do not.
>
> > I am trying to gain a better understanding of the definition of
> > primary and secondary fermentation. *Specifically, what defines the
> > seperation between the two. I have read some, and in the last year, i
> > have made 5 5-gallon batches. *All of these were with different
> > recipes.
> > So, I understand the basics. *Primary fermentation is open to the air,
> > and yeast converts sugar to alcohol. *After some period of time, or
> > some measurement, the wine is racked off the lees into an airtight
> > container to continue for several weeks.
> > I am specifically leaving MLF out of this for right now.
> > I guess my question is this, what to most of you use as an indicator
> > for when to transfer wine wine from primary to secondary.
>
> > * *A fixed period of time?
> > * *A Specific gravity reading?
> > * *A leveling out of the SG at a certain level?
>
> > What are we looking for here?
>
> > Sorry for the newbie question, but this has been bugging me for a bit
> > now.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You said it better than i could. It has been the mapping of the terms
"Primary and Secondary fermentations" to "Alcoholic / Malolactic
fermenation" that has been bugging me.


Thanks.

Wayne,

Things are said here before my message that are right on the nose.
Normally however primary fermentation is meant to be alcoholic
fermentation. The secondary fermentation is the malo-lactic fermentation.

However it is normal winemaking language to speak of an open fermentation
vessel as the primary. And the closed (carboy) vessel as the secondary. So
this might be confusing.

So moving to the secondary means transferring from the open fermentor to the
carboy.

Now when to do this is a totally different kind of discussion.
Indeed like some pointed out grapes can be in the primary (vessel)
for a few days to several weeks.
This depends on all kinds of issues.
The longer the must is fermented on the lees the more colour will
get into the wine. For reds this might be a good thing. But the more the
grapes are in the must while fermenting, the more alcohol will start to
form and this will dissolve tannins.
And the more tannins in the wine the longer it has to age.
So it really depends on the winemaker on how long the wine will be
in the primary and then pressed.

If you are making fruit wines and I take elderberries as an example,
the elderberries will have lots of tannins, so no longer as 4 days in the
primary and then pressing and over to the secondary vessel.
Most fruit wines will not be longer as a few days to a week in the primary.
After that they will be pressed and transferred to the secondary (carboy).

Luc

Wayne Harris wrote:

> I thought I understood this. But, in my infinte dumbness, I have
> discovered that i truly do not.
>
> I am trying to gain a better understanding of the definition of
> primary and secondary fermentation. Specifically, what defines the
> seperation between the two. I have read some, and in the last year, i
> have made 5 5-gallon batches. All of these were with different
> recipes.
> So, I understand the basics. Primary fermentation is open to the air,
> and yeast converts sugar to alcohol. After some period of time, or
> some measurement, the wine is racked off the lees into an airtight
> container to continue for several weeks.
> I am specifically leaving MLF out of this for right now.
> I guess my question is this, what to most of you use as an indicator
> for when to transfer wine wine from primary to secondary.
>
> * A fixed period of time?
> * A Specific gravity reading?
> * A leveling out of the SG at a certain level?
>
> What are we looking for here?
>
> Sorry for the newbie question, but this has been bugging me for a bit
> now.

--
http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/