Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. This is
by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
promises to be the most challenging.

Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
without excessive intervention.

Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
incredible vintage.

The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
remove as much free run as water added).

Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. I'm
considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a pH I expect to be
around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.

Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've always used the rule of
thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. I don't want
an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
these days (4x4)?

Thanks much in advance,

Darin

Darin wrote:

> Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of
> premium Napa Valley Cabernet
> Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and
> Peter Brehm. This is by far the most expensive
> barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
> promises to be the most challenging.
>
> Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28
> Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
> at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red
> California fruit bomb", without excessive
> intervention.
>
> Hopefully, the masters of this news group can
> give me some guidance and I can thereby avoid
> screwing up what has potential for an incredible
> vintage.
>
> The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the
> chemistry and then ameliorate with acidulated
> water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll remove
> as much free run as water added).
>
> Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where
> I stand. I'm considering raising the TA to as
> high as 0.75 to get what meagre
> decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a
> pH I expect to be around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to
> start the ferment, follow with ML, press, and
> then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar
> to age, precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its
> new oak barrel.
>
> Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've
> always used the rule of
> thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before
> fermenting. I don't want an overly acidic wine,
> though - isn't that the California approach
> these days (4x4)?
>
> Thanks much in advance,
>
> Darin

Have you considered the possibility of blending
before ferment with another Cabernet or another
variety such as Merlot or Sangiovese with lower
pH, and brix values?

"Darin" > wrote in message
...
> Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
> Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. This is
> by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
> promises to be the most challenging.
>
> Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
> at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
> without excessive intervention.
>
> Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
> and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
> incredible vintage.
>
> The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
> ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
> remove as much free run as water added).
>
> Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. I'm
> considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
> decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a pH I expect to be
> around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
> press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
> precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>
> Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've always used the rule of
> thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. I don't want
> an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
> these days (4x4)?
>
> Thanks much in advance,
>
> Darin

Darin,
That is the only kind of red wine I make.

I would add about four gallons of plain water to the 1000# of grapes.
Should produce a Brix of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so.
I would ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee yeast.
Punch down the cap at least four times a day.
Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
Start MLF.
Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is finished.
Age in a neutral barrel for ~12 months.
Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR sulfur dioxide and bottle.

Don't mess with these high quality grapes and don't be afraid of high pH
wines (see www.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm ).

Good luck,
Lum

Lum,

What's the advantage of ameliorating the must over adding tartaric
acid? Why would you water down the grapes? Is it the brix level? Would
you add water if the brix was 26 to start to adjust the ph? Do you, as
a rule ,leave the ph and only adjust the brix if too high?

TIA

Bob

On Nov 14, 8:07*pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
> "Darin" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
> > Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. *This is
> > by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
> > promises to be the most challenging.
>
> > Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
> > at 0.67. *My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
> > without excessive intervention.
>
> > Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
> > and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
> > incredible vintage.
>
> > The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
> > ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
> > remove as much free run as water added).
>
> > Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. *I'm
> > considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
> > decrease in pH might be possible. *Then, with a pH I expect to be
> > around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
> > press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
> > precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>
> > Does this sound reasonable? *In the past, I've always used the rule of
> > thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. *I don't want
> > an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
> > these days (4x4)?
>
> > Thanks much in advance,
>
> > Darin
>
> Darin,
> That is the only kind of red wine I make.
>
> I would add about four gallons of plain water to the 1000# of grapes.
> Should produce a Brix of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so.
> I would ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee yeast.
> Punch down the cap at least four times a day.
> Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
> Start MLF.
> Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is finished.
> Age in a neutral barrel for ~12 months.
> Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR sulfur dioxide and bottle.
>
> Don't mess with these high quality grapes and don't be afraid of high pH
> wines (see *www.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm).
>
> Good luck,
> Lum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The water is for the brix level.

The pH adjustment is, in my understanding, for protection of the wine by
SO2. At higher pH it takes more free SO2 to get the same molecular SO2
level.
The tartaric acid addition is for pH reduction. The precipitation of
potassium bitartrate will use up tartaric acid. Thus you can achieve a
lowered pH without excessively high TA.

You want to keep the pH no higher than 3.9. If you let it get above
4.0, you risk not being able to lower it using tartaric acid additions.
My understanding is the chemical reaction of potassium with tartaric
acid to reduce pH will not occur above pH 4.1.

One may adjust the pH downward with tartaric additions to pH 3.7 at the
next to last racking before bottling, allowing time for the
precipitation of the bitartrates. This will allow for reasonably
efficient protection of the wine by SO2 after the wine is bottled.

Gene

wrote:
> Lum,
>
> What's the advantage of ameliorating the must over adding tartaric
> acid? Why would you water down the grapes? Is it the brix level? Would
> you add water if the brix was 26 to start to adjust the ph? Do you, as
> a rule ,leave the ph and only adjust the brix if too high?
>
> TIA
>
> Bob
>
> On Nov 14, 8:07 pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
>> "Darin" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
>>> Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. This is
>>> by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
>>> promises to be the most challenging.
>>> Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
>>> at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
>>> without excessive intervention.
>>> Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
>>> and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
>>> incredible vintage.
>>> The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
>>> ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
>>> remove as much free run as water added).
>>> Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. I'm
>>> considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
>>> decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a pH I expect to be
>>> around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
>>> press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
>>> precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>>> Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've always used the rule of
>>> thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. I don't want
>>> an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
>>> these days (4x4)?
>>> Thanks much in advance,
>>> Darin
>> Darin,
>> That is the only kind of red wine I make.
>>
>> I would add about four gallons of plain water to the 1000# of grapes.
>> Should produce a Brix of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so.
>> I would ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee yeast.
>> Punch down the cap at least four times a day.
>> Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
>> Start MLF.
>> Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is finished.
>> Age in a neutral barrel for ~12 months.
>> Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR sulfur dioxide and bottle.
>>
>> Don't mess with these high quality grapes and don't be afraid of high pH
>> wines (see www.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm).
>>
>> Good luck,
>> Lum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>

Bob,
Some people do not approve, but most California wineries are now producing
"big red fruit bombs." This style of wine is being produced because it
SELLS.
Very ripe grapes are needed to make this style of wine. But, very ripe
grapes have high Brix and high pH values. High Brix can produce too much
alcohol and make the wines taste too hot. I like to hold the alcohol to
less than ~16% hence the water addition. In general, I do not dilute to
less than 26 Brix.
Tannin and TA work _together_ to produce astringent, rough tasting wines.
These big red wines contain lots of tannin so many winemakers deliberately
try and keep the TA values low (~0.6%) to avoid overly rough wines.
I have found that trying to adjust pH in these big red wines doesn't work
very well because the resulting TA values are often too high (~0.65 - 0.75)
and the wines become very rough and astringent. I want people to use words
like "big," "smooth," "soft," "round" when they describe my big red wines.
In general, adjusting the pH produces higher TA values. The wines are
harder and rougher. Consumers often describe pH adjusted big red wines
using words like "clean," "focused," "vibrant," "sophisticated," etc.
These very ripe grapes are often too high in sugar and too low in TA. So,
the common pre fermentation must adjustments are......
1. A few gallons of plain water per ton of grapes to reduce the Brix.
2. A small tartaric acid addition to get the TA up to ~6 grams per liter.
3. Plenty of yeast nutrients because high Brix levels are hard to ferment
to dryness.
Lum

> wrote in message
...

Lum,

What's the advantage of ameliorating the must over adding tartaric
acid? Why would you water down the grapes? Is it the brix level? Would
you add water if the brix was 26 to start to adjust the ph? Do you, as
a rule ,leave the ph and only adjust the brix if too high?

TIA

Bob

On Nov 14, 8:07 pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
> "Darin" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
> > Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. This is
> > by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
> > promises to be the most challenging.
>
> > Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
> > at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
> > without excessive intervention.
>
> > Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
> > and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
> > incredible vintage.
>
> > The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
> > ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
> > remove as much free run as water added).
>
> > Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. I'm
> > considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
> > decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a pH I expect to be
> > around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
> > press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
> > precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>
> > Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've always used the rule of
> > thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. I don't want
> > an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
> > these days (4x4)?
>
> > Thanks much in advance,
>
> > Darin
>
> Darin,
> That is the only kind of red wine I make.
>
> I would add about four gallons of plain water to the 1000# of grapes.
> Should produce a Brix of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so.
> I would ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee yeast.
> Punch down the cap at least four times a day.
> Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
> Start MLF.
> Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is finished.
> Age in a neutral barrel for ~12 months.
> Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR sulfur dioxide and bottle.
>
> Don't mess with these high quality grapes and don't be afraid of high pH
> wines (see www.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm).
>
> Good luck,
> Lum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

On Nov 16, 8:54*am, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
> Bob,
> Some people do not approve, but most California wineries are now producing
> "big red fruit bombs." *This style of wine is being produced because it
> SELLS.
> Very ripe grapes are needed to make this style of wine. *But, very ripe
> grapes have high Brix and high pH values. *High Brix can produce too much
> alcohol and make the wines taste too hot. *I like to hold *the alcohol to
> less than ~16% hence the water addition. *In general, I do not dilute to
> less than 26 Brix.
> Tannin and TA work _together_ to produce astringent, rough tasting wines.
> These big red wines contain lots of tannin so many winemakers deliberately
> try and keep the TA values low (~0.6%) to avoid overly rough wines.
> I have found that trying to adjust pH in these big red wines doesn't work
> very well because the resulting TA values are often too high (~0.65 - 0.75)
> and the wines become very rough and astringent. *I want people to use words
> like "big," "smooth," "soft," "round" when they describe my big red wines..
> In general, adjusting the pH produces higher TA values. *The wines are
> harder and rougher. *Consumers often describe pH adjusted big red wines
> using words like "clean," "focused," "vibrant," "sophisticated," etc.
> These very ripe grapes are often too high in sugar and too low in TA. *So,
> the common pre fermentation must adjustments are......
> 1. *A few gallons of plain water per ton of grapes to reduce the Brix.
> 2. *A small tartaric acid addition to get the TA up to ~6 grams per liter.
> 3. *Plenty of yeast nutrients because high Brix levels are hard to ferment
> to dryness.
> Lum
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> Lum,
>
> What's the advantage of ameliorating the must over adding tartaric
> acid? Why would you water down the grapes? Is it the brix level? Would
> you add water if the brix was 26 to start to adjust the ph? Do you, as
> a rule ,leave the ph and only adjust the brix if too high?
>
> TIA
>
> Bob
>
> On Nov 14, 8:07 pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Darin" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> > > Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
> > > Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. This is
> > > by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
> > > promises to be the most challenging.
>
> > > Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
> > > at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
> > > without excessive intervention.
>
> > > Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
> > > and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
> > > incredible vintage.
>
> > > The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
> > > ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
> > > remove as much free run as water added).
>
> > > Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. I'm
> > > considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
> > > decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a pH I expect to be
> > > around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
> > > press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
> > > precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>
> > > Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've always used the rule of
> > > thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. I don't want
> > > an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
> > > these days (4x4)?
>
> > > Thanks much in advance,
>
> > > Darin
>
> > Darin,
> > That is the only kind of red wine I make.
>
> > I would add about four gallons of plain water to the 1000# of grapes.
> > Should produce a Brix of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so.
> > I would ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee yeast.
> > Punch down the cap at least four times a day.
> > Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
> > Start MLF.
> > Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is finished.
> > Age in a neutral barrel for ~12 months.
> > Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR sulfur dioxide and bottle.
>
> > Don't mess with these high quality grapes and don't be afraid of high pH
> > wines (seewww.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm).
>
> > Good luck,
> > Lum- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Dear all, thanks much for the interesting and informative
conversation. Wow, did I ever end up with a different must than the
one described by the vineyard.

My lab results, which while not perfect, should be fairly accurate
we

Brix=24.1, TA=.42, pH=3.50

I think my vision of a fruit bomb is dead. California dreaming,
indeed...

Now my challenge is to decide how far to raise the TA, prior to
starting ferment tonight.

Darin wrote:

> On Nov 16, 8:54*am, "Lum Eisenman"
> > wrote:
>> Bob,
>> Some people do not approve, but most California
>> wineries are now producing "big red fruit
>> bombs." *This style of wine is being produced
>> because it SELLS. Very ripe grapes are needed
>> to make this style of wine. *But, very ripe
>> grapes have high Brix and high pH values. *High
>> Brix can produce too much alcohol and make the
>> wines taste too hot. *I like to hold *the
>> alcohol to less than ~16% hence the water
>> addition. *In general, I do not dilute to less
>> than 26 Brix. Tannin and TA work _together_ to
>> produce astringent, rough tasting wines. These
>> big red wines contain lots of tannin so many
>> winemakers deliberately try and keep the TA
>> values low (~0.6%) to avoid overly rough wines.
>> I have found that trying to adjust pH in these
>> big red wines doesn't work very well because
>> the resulting TA values are often too high
>> (~0.65 - 0.75) and the wines become very rough
>> and astringent. *I want people to use words
>> like "big," "smooth," "soft," "round" when they
>> describe my big red wines. In general,
>> adjusting the pH produces higher TA values.
>> The wines are harder and rougher. *Consumers
>> often describe pH adjusted big red wines using
>> words like "clean," "focused," "vibrant,"
>> "sophisticated," etc. These very ripe grapes
>> are often too high in sugar and too low in TA.
>> So, the common pre fermentation must
>> adjustments are...... 1. *A few gallons of
>> plain water per ton of grapes to reduce the
>> Brix. 2. *A small tartaric acid addition to get
>> the TA up to ~6 grams per liter. 3. *Plenty of
>> yeast nutrients because high Brix levels are
>> hard to ferment to dryness. Lum
>>
>> > wrote in message
>>
>>
...
>>
>> Lum,
>>
>> What's the advantage of ameliorating the must
>> over adding tartaric acid? Why would you water
>> down the grapes? Is it the brix level? Would
>> you add water if the brix was 26 to start to
>> adjust the ph? Do you, as a rule ,leave the ph
>> and only adjust the brix if too high?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Nov 14, 8:07 pm, "Lum Eisenman"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Darin" > wrote in
>> > message
>>
>>
...
>>
>> > > Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of
>> > > premium Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon,
>> > > courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter
>> > > Brehm. This is by far the most expensive
>> > > barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
>> > > promises to be the most challenging.
>>
>> > > Every variable seems to be extreme,
>> > > including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA at 0.67.
>> > > My goal is to make a "big red California
>> > > fruit bomb", without excessive
>> > > intervention.
>>
>> > > Hopefully, the masters of this news group
>> > > can give me some guidance and I can thereby
>> > > avoid screwing up what has potential for an
>> > > incredible vintage.
>>
>> > > The first thing I'm going to do is confirm
>> > > the chemistry and then ameliorate with
>> > > acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to
>> > > 24.5 (I'll remove as much free run as water
>> > > added).
>>
>> > > Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see
>> > > where I stand. I'm considering raising the
>> > > TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
>> > > decrease in pH might be possible. Then,
>> > > with a pH I expect to be around 3.7 - 3.8,
>> > > I'll have to start the ferment, follow with
>> > > ML, press, and then send the sulphited wine
>> > > to the cool cellar to age, precipitate KHT,
>> > > and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>>
>> > > Does this sound reasonable? In the past,
>> > > I've always used the rule of thumb that pH
>> > > should be less than 3.5 before fermenting.
>> > > I don't want an overly acidic wine, though
>> > > - isn't that the California approach these
>> > > days (4x4)?
>>
>> > > Thanks much in advance,
>>
>> > > Darin
>>
>> > Darin,
>> > That is the only kind of red wine I make.
>>
>> > I would add about four gallons of plain water
>> > to the 1000# of grapes. Should produce a Brix
>> > of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so. I would
>> > ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee
>> > yeast. Punch down the cap at least four times
>> > a day. Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
>> > Start MLF. Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is
>> > finished. Age in a neutral barrel for ~12
>> > months. Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR
>> > sulfur dioxide and bottle.
>>
>> > Don't mess with these high quality grapes and
>> > don't be afraid of high pH wines
>> > (seewww.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm).
>>
>> > Good luck,
>> > Lum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Dear all, thanks much for the interesting and
> informative
> conversation. Wow, did I ever end up with a
> different must than the one described by the
> vineyard.
>
> My lab results, which while not perfect, should
> be fairly accurate we
>
> Brix=24.1, TA=.42, pH=3.50
>
> I think my vision of a fruit bomb is dead.
> California dreaming, indeed...

Why do you think your fruit bomb vision is dead?
I, personally, would MUCH rather have the numbers
you just stated that your previous listing of the
chemistries. A couple of grams per liter of
tartaric should fix you right up.

IMHO, the least "tweaking" one has to do, the
better. If you have to add water to a grape must
then I can't understand why it would be superior
to a "Country Wine" using fruit other than grapes
and raising the must to a high level of brix with
sugar. This is just my opinion. I am sure
others will disagree.

>
> Now my challenge is to decide how far to raise
> the TA, prior to starting ferment tonight.

Thanks Lum.

Bob

On Nov 16, 11:54*am, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
> Bob,
> Some people do not approve, but most California wineries are now producing
> "big red fruit bombs." *This style of wine is being produced because it
> SELLS.
> Very ripe grapes are needed to make this style of wine. *But, very ripe
> grapes have high Brix and high pH values. *High Brix can produce too much
> alcohol and make the wines taste too hot. *I like to hold *the alcohol to
> less than ~16% hence the water addition. *In general, I do not dilute to
> less than 26 Brix.
> Tannin and TA work _together_ to produce astringent, rough tasting wines.
> These big red wines contain lots of tannin so many winemakers deliberately
> try and keep the TA values low (~0.6%) to avoid overly rough wines.
> I have found that trying to adjust pH in these big red wines doesn't work
> very well because the resulting TA values are often too high (~0.65 - 0.75)
> and the wines become very rough and astringent. *I want people to use words
> like "big," "smooth," "soft," "round" when they describe my big red wines..
> In general, adjusting the pH produces higher TA values. *The wines are
> harder and rougher. *Consumers often describe pH adjusted big red wines
> using words like "clean," "focused," "vibrant," "sophisticated," etc.
> These very ripe grapes are often too high in sugar and too low in TA. *So,
> the common pre fermentation must adjustments are......
> 1. *A few gallons of plain water per ton of grapes to reduce the Brix.
> 2. *A small tartaric acid addition to get the TA up to ~6 grams per liter.
> 3. *Plenty of yeast nutrients because high Brix levels are hard to ferment
> to dryness.
> Lum
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> Lum,
>
> What's the advantage of ameliorating the must over adding tartaric
> acid? Why would you water down the grapes? Is it the brix level? Would
> you add water if the brix was 26 to start to adjust the ph? Do you, as
> a rule ,leave the ph and only adjust the brix if too high?
>
> TIA
>
> Bob
>
> On Nov 14, 8:07 pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
>
> > "Darin" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> > > Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
> > > Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. This is
> > > by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
> > > promises to be the most challenging.
>
> > > Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
> > > at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
> > > without excessive intervention.
>
> > > Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
> > > and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
> > > incredible vintage.
>
> > > The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
> > > ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
> > > remove as much free run as water added).
>
> > > Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. I'm
> > > considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
> > > decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a pH I expect to be
> > > around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
> > > press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
> > > precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>
> > > Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've always used the rule of
> > > thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. I don't want
> > > an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
> > > these days (4x4)?
>
> > > Thanks much in advance,
>
> > > Darin
>
> > Darin,
> > That is the only kind of red wine I make.
>
> > I would add about four gallons of plain water to the 1000# of grapes.
> > Should produce a Brix of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so.
> > I would ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee yeast.
> > Punch down the cap at least four times a day.
> > Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
> > Start MLF.
> > Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is finished.
> > Age in a neutral barrel for ~12 months.
> > Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR sulfur dioxide and bottle.
>
> > Don't mess with these high quality grapes and don't be afraid of high pH
> > wines (seewww.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm).
>
> > Good luck,
> > Lum- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Darin,

I was always taught to use Ph before fermentation. You're starting Ph
is pretty good. Maybe adjust down to 3.4 with tartaric. If the wine is
too astringent after fermentation you could either cold stabilize or/
and add potassium bicarbonate to raise the Ph. I'd say your starting
numbers look pretty good to me.

Bob


On Nov 16, 3:07*pm, Darin > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 8:54*am, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Bob,
> > Some people do not approve, but most California wineries are now producing
> > "big red fruit bombs." *This style of wine is being produced because it
> > SELLS.
> > Very ripe grapes are needed to make this style of wine. *But, very ripe
> > grapes have high Brix and high pH values. *High Brix can produce too much
> > alcohol and make the wines taste too hot. *I like to hold *the alcohol to
> > less than ~16% hence the water addition. *In general, I do not dilute to
> > less than 26 Brix.
> > Tannin and TA work _together_ to produce astringent, rough tasting wines.
> > These big red wines contain lots of tannin so many winemakers deliberately
> > try and keep the TA values low (~0.6%) to avoid overly rough wines.
> > I have found that trying to adjust pH in these big red wines doesn't work
> > very well because the resulting TA values are often too high (~0.65 - 0..75)
> > and the wines become very rough and astringent. *I want people to use words
> > like "big," "smooth," "soft," "round" when they describe my big red wines.
> > In general, adjusting the pH produces higher TA values. *The wines are
> > harder and rougher. *Consumers often describe pH adjusted big red wines
> > using words like "clean," "focused," "vibrant," "sophisticated," etc.
> > These very ripe grapes are often too high in sugar and too low in TA. *So,
> > the common pre fermentation must adjustments are......
> > 1. *A few gallons of plain water per ton of grapes to reduce the Brix..
> > 2. *A small tartaric acid addition to get the TA up to ~6 grams per liter.
> > 3. *Plenty of yeast nutrients because high Brix levels are hard to ferment
> > to dryness.
> > Lum
>
> > > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> > Lum,
>
> > What's the advantage of ameliorating the must over adding tartaric
> > acid? Why would you water down the grapes? Is it the brix level? Would
> > you add water if the brix was 26 to start to adjust the ph? Do you, as
> > a rule ,leave the ph and only adjust the brix if too high?
>
> > TIA
>
> > Bob
>
> > On Nov 14, 8:07 pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
>
> > > "Darin" > wrote in message
>
> > ....
>
> > > > Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
> > > > Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. This is
> > > > by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
> > > > promises to be the most challenging.
>
> > > > Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
> > > > at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
> > > > without excessive intervention.
>
> > > > Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
> > > > and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
> > > > incredible vintage.
>
> > > > The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
> > > > ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
> > > > remove as much free run as water added).
>
> > > > Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. I'm
> > > > considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
> > > > decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a pH I expect to be
> > > > around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
> > > > press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
> > > > precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>
> > > > Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've always used the rule of
> > > > thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. I don't want
> > > > an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
> > > > these days (4x4)?
>
> > > > Thanks much in advance,
>
> > > > Darin
>
> > > Darin,
> > > That is the only kind of red wine I make.
>
> > > I would add about four gallons of plain water to the 1000# of grapes.
> > > Should produce a Brix of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so.
> > > I would ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee yeast.
> > > Punch down the cap at least four times a day.
> > > Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
> > > Start MLF.
> > > Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is finished.
> > > Age in a neutral barrel for ~12 months.
> > > Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR sulfur dioxide and bottle.
>
> > > Don't mess with these high quality grapes and don't be afraid of high pH
> > > wines (seewww.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm).
>
> > > Good luck,
> > > Lum- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Dear all, thanks much for the interesting and informative
> conversation. *Wow, did I ever end up with a different must than the
> one described by the vineyard.
>
> My lab results, which while not perfect, should be fairly accurate
> we
>
> Brix=24.1, TA=.42, pH=3.50
>
> I think my vision of a fruit bomb is dead. *California dreaming,
> indeed...
>
> Now my challenge is to decide how far to raise the TA, prior to
> starting ferment tonight.

On Nov 17, 6:56*pm, wrote:
> Darin,
>
> I was always taught to use Ph before fermentation. *You're starting Ph
> is pretty good. Maybe adjust down to 3.4 with tartaric. If the wine is
> too astringent after fermentation you could either cold stabilize or/
> and add potassium bicarbonate to raise the Ph. I'd say your starting
> numbers look pretty good to me.
>
> Bob
>
> On Nov 16, 3:07*pm, Darin > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 8:54*am, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
>
> > > Bob,
> > > Some people do not approve, but most California wineries are now producing
> > > "big red fruit bombs." *This style of wine is being produced because it
> > > SELLS.
> > > Very ripe grapes are needed to make this style of wine. *But, very ripe
> > > grapes have high Brix and high pH values. *High Brix can produce too much
> > > alcohol and make the wines taste too hot. *I like to hold *the alcohol to
> > > less than ~16% hence the water addition. *In general, I do not dilute to
> > > less than 26 Brix.
> > > Tannin and TA work _together_ to produce astringent, rough tasting wines.
> > > These big red wines contain lots of tannin so many winemakers deliberately
> > > try and keep the TA values low (~0.6%) to avoid overly rough wines.
> > > I have found that trying to adjust pH in these big red wines doesn't work
> > > very well because the resulting TA values are often too high (~0.65 - 0.75)
> > > and the wines become very rough and astringent. *I want people to use words
> > > like "big," "smooth," "soft," "round" when they describe my big red wines.
> > > In general, adjusting the pH produces higher TA values. *The wines are
> > > harder and rougher. *Consumers often describe pH adjusted big red wines
> > > using words like "clean," "focused," "vibrant," "sophisticated," etc.
> > > These very ripe grapes are often too high in sugar and too low in TA. *So,
> > > the common pre fermentation must adjustments are......
> > > 1. *A few gallons of plain water per ton of grapes to reduce the Brix.
> > > 2. *A small tartaric acid addition to get the TA up to ~6 grams per liter.
> > > 3. *Plenty of yeast nutrients because high Brix levels are hard to ferment
> > > to dryness.
> > > Lum
>
> > > > wrote in message
>
> > ....
>
> > > Lum,
>
> > > What's the advantage of ameliorating the must over adding tartaric
> > > acid? Why would you water down the grapes? Is it the brix level? Would
> > > you add water if the brix was 26 to start to adjust the ph? Do you, as
> > > a rule ,leave the ph and only adjust the brix if too high?
>
> > > TIA
>
> > > Bob
>
> > > On Nov 14, 8:07 pm, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
>
> > > > "Darin" > wrote in message
>
> > > ...
>
> > > > > Today, I will take delivery of 1/2 ton of premium Napa Valley Cabernet
> > > > > Sauvignon, courtesy of the Caldwell vineyard and Peter Brehm. This is
> > > > > by far the most expensive barrel we've ever made, and fittingly it
> > > > > promises to be the most challenging.
>
> > > > > Every variable seems to be extreme, including 28 Brix, pH 3.80, and TA
> > > > > at 0.67. My goal is to make a "big red California fruit bomb",
> > > > > without excessive intervention.
>
> > > > > Hopefully, the masters of this news group can give me some guidance
> > > > > and I can thereby avoid screwing up what has potential for an
> > > > > incredible vintage.
>
> > > > > The first thing I'm going to do is confirm the chemistry and then
> > > > > ameliorate with acidulated water (7g/L) to reduce brix to 24.5 (I'll
> > > > > remove as much free run as water added).
>
> > > > > Then I'll have a look at TA and pH and see where I stand. I'm
> > > > > considering raising the TA to as high as 0.75 to get what meagre
> > > > > decrease in pH might be possible. Then, with a pH I expect to be
> > > > > around 3.7 - 3.8, I'll have to start the ferment, follow with ML,
> > > > > press, and then send the sulphited wine to the cool cellar to age,
> > > > > precipitate KHT, and enjoy life in its new oak barrel.
>
> > > > > Does this sound reasonable? In the past, I've always used the rule of
> > > > > thumb that pH should be less than 3.5 before fermenting. I don't want
> > > > > an overly acidic wine, though - isn't that the California approach
> > > > > these days (4x4)?
>
> > > > > Thanks much in advance,
>
> > > > > Darin
>
> > > > Darin,
> > > > That is the only kind of red wine I make.
>
> > > > I would add about four gallons of plain water to the 1000# of grapes.
> > > > Should produce a Brix of about 26+ and a TA of 0.63 or so.
> > > > I would ferment with Prise de Mousse or Premier Cuvee yeast.
> > > > Punch down the cap at least four times a day.
> > > > Press after 7 or 8 days on the skins.
> > > > Start MLF.
> > > > Add 50 mg/l of SO2 when MLF is finished.
> > > > Age in a neutral barrel for ~12 months.
> > > > Raise SO2 to 0.5 mg/l of MOLECULAR sulfur dioxide and bottle.
>
> > > > Don't mess with these high quality grapes and don't be afraid of high pH
> > > > wines (seewww.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm).
>
> > > > Good luck,
> > > > Lum- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Dear all, thanks much for the interesting and informative
> > conversation. *Wow, did I ever end up with a different must than the
> > one described by the vineyard.
>
> > My lab results, which while not perfect, should be fairly accurate
> > we
>
> > Brix=24.1, TA=.42, pH=3.50
>
> > I think my vision of a fruit bomb is dead. *California dreaming,
> > indeed...
>
> > Now my challenge is to decide how far to raise the TA, prior to
> > starting ferment tonight.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, the pH looked pretty good, but with only .42% TA you probably
wouldn't be too surprised to find it was really flat. I added about
1.5g/L tartaric over a couple of additions until it tasted right. The
final TA on crushed berries with juice was .58. Ferment has begun, it
tastes great, and the pH of the free run was 3.3, so I'm ready for
ferment and ML.

I don't know if it's the quality of the grapes (I hope), but the
ferment smells absolutely divine...

Thanks so much for the many comments.