If you have any stainless steel ball bearings or a length of stainless
steel chain, you can drop these into the keg and agitate the keg. By
agitate, I pick up the keg and hold it horizontally at waist level.
Then I rock the keg left and right, rotating the keg about an 1/8th
turn each time. I also put in ear plugs. This makes a lot of noise.
A quart, or so of water is mixed in with the bearings. Then I flush
the keg into a clean white plastic pail so that I can see if there are
any particles still being swept out. Doing a cold stabilize can
deposit some stubborn deposits on the wall of the keg. Finally I will
rinse with either bisulphite or iodine. A shop vacuum can help
reaching down into the keg to get out the last bit of moisture that
collects at the bottom of the keg.

You should USE STAINLESS STEEL if you want to mechanically knock off
crud from the wall of the keg. It is possible to deposit carbon steel
particles from an iron chain or iron nuts and bolts and this can cause
rusting on the surface of the barrel. (Something called ferritic
deposition).

On glass jugs, I go to the Dollar Store. They have small bags of
translucent plastic shapes that can be put at the bottom of a small
fish tank. These come in different shapes and textures. Three small
bags, about 2 cups (16 ounces) of these inside a glass carboy can be
swished around too and mechanically remove some crud. Use a couple
cups of water in the carboy to help. Then flush.

Bill M.

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:08:22 -0700, "Negodki" >
wrote:

>"steve" > wrote:
>
>> I rinsed it out with water and then soaked in in a solution (1 > tbsp/gal)
>B-Brite (sodium prcarbonate)and rinsed again.
>> When I lowered a small flashlight into the kegs and looked in, the bottom
>looked like grey fine sand paper.
>> Is that usual? Should I rinse in a citric acid bath? Proportions? Is it
>ready to use now?
>
>They are probably salt deposits of some sort. If you soaked in bicarbonate
>(which is an alkali), and it didn't loosen them, try citric acid (1/2 tsp.
>per 250 ml cup of water). You don't have to fill the entire keg, just enough
>to cover the deposits. Let it soak for a while, and swish it around. Repeat
>until it all comes loose, or it you decide it isn't helping. Let it soak at
>least overnight before giving up.
>
>If neither the alkali, nor the acid, remove the deposits, empty the keg,
>pour in a few handfuls of builders sand (the kind you get in a bag to mix
>with cement), add enough water to make a loose paste, and swish it around.
>That will act just like scouring powder.
>
>If THAT doesn't remove it, I wouldn't worry about it ever coming off --- or
>tainting your wine. It may be that something etched the bottom of the keg.
>

Fish Head > wrote in message >. ..

Some pretty damn clever ideas, there, particularly those stainless
steel balls.

As an avid homebrewer, "stainless" could be my middle name. I did want
to warn folks on this thread that I would never just rinse a keg and
then use it for ANYTHING. I always sanitize and try to sterilize. This
means, like one of the other posters on the thread, using a sodium
percarbonate solution. This usually works great. I'd like to add that
99% of things come out by letting it sit overnight. People don't let
time do the work for them. They are too impatient.

After I do that I rinse, rinse, and then rinse again. Finally, I do my
best to sterilize, and that means using an iodophor solution. A few
fellow winemakers I know skip this step, but they also have had
problems. Knock on wood, I try my best to sterilize all my equipment
before use, and so far, so good.

Also, I wonder if the look that they are describing might not be just
the low gloss finish used on typical stainless. It isn't polished up
to a chrome like shine inside of a keg, like you'd see in stainless
cookware. It is more like a matte finish, or like a brushed aluminum
look.

Hope some of that is helpful.

Regards,

Deadend

I use granite landscape chips in some water to knock deposits off kegs. Just shake.
Tim
>
> Some pretty damn clever ideas, there, particularly those stainless
> steel balls.
>
> As an avid homebrewer, "stainless" could be my middle name. I did want
> to warn folks on this thread that I would never just rinse a keg and
> then use it for ANYTHING. I always sanitize and try to sterilize. This
> means, like one of the other posters on the thread, using a sodium
> percarbonate solution. This usually works great. I'd like to add that
> 99% of things come out by letting it sit overnight. People don't let
> time do the work for them. They are too impatient.
>
> After I do that I rinse, rinse, and then rinse again. Finally, I do my
> best to sterilize, and that means using an iodophor solution. A few
> fellow winemakers I know skip this step, but they also have had
> problems. Knock on wood, I try my best to sterilize all my equipment
> before use, and so far, so good.
>
> Also, I wonder if the look that they are describing might not be just
> the low gloss finish used on typical stainless. It isn't polished up
> to a chrome like shine inside of a keg, like you'd see in stainless
> cookware. It is more like a matte finish, or like a brushed aluminum
> look.
>
> Hope some of that is helpful.
>
> Regards,
>
> Deadend

Sounds like good advice, I don't use stainless so did not want to
comment. I know stainless does look like gray sandpaper if it is not
buffed up and though that might be what he was seeing, but did not
want to mess him up either.

Are you sure idophor is ok with winemaking? I was pretty sure that
was exclusive to beermakers because you left it in, but do not use it.
I thought there was a problem with exposing the wine to it. (We just
started making beer...)

With wine containers, after cleaning, I rinse with a 1% sulfite and ~
..5% citric acid solution to sanitize instead of idophor. I just let it
drip out and have at it. I have no idea if it has prevented problems,
but don't have any and figure it's cheap insurance. If stink is any
indicator, it kills lots of stuff... )
Regards,
Joe

>
> As an avid homebrewer, "stainless" could be my middle name. I did want
> to warn folks on this thread that I would never just rinse a keg and
> then use it for ANYTHING. I always sanitize and try to sterilize. This
> means, like one of the other posters on the thread, using a sodium
> percarbonate solution. This usually works great. I'd like to add that
> 99% of things come out by letting it sit overnight. People don't let
> time do the work for them. They are too impatient.
>
> After I do that I rinse, rinse, and then rinse again. Finally, I do my
> best to sterilize, and that means using an iodophor solution. A few
> fellow winemakers I know skip this step, but they also have had
> problems. Knock on wood, I try my best to sterilize all my equipment
> before use, and so far, so good.
>
> Also, I wonder if the look that they are describing might not be just
> the low gloss finish used on typical stainless. It isn't polished up
> to a chrome like shine inside of a keg, like you'd see in stainless
> cookware. It is more like a matte finish, or like a brushed aluminum
> look.
>
> Hope some of that is helpful.
>
> Regards,
>
> Deadend

(Joe Sallustio) wrote in message . com>...

> Are you sure idophor is ok with winemaking? I was pretty sure that
> was exclusive to beermakers because you left it in, but do not use it.
> I thought there was a problem with exposing the wine to it. (We just
> started making beer...)

Well, I'm a homebrewer, so that's where I got the habit from, to be
sure. As far as I know, it should be fine, if it is indeed used
properly. After all, when you drink wine out, I'd guarantee that
you're drinking it from glasses sanitized with iodophor as the
no-rinse sanitizer, right? Same with all of your plates, glasses and
silverware. On the other hand, I'd wager that 75% of people using it
at home are using it wrong, including homebrewers. They are likely
mixing up concentrations that are way too strong, and/or filling
containers IMMEDIATELY following iodophor rinse, without letting it
dry for a moment. That's a sure-fire way to get a little of it in
whatever you are using it for. Then again, taste tests and experiments
have shown that a little iodophor is literally undetectable even to
the experienced imbiber, although it's not the taste I'd be worried
about. I just make sure to use it properly so that I'm not consuming
any of the solution for any reason!

> With wine containers, after cleaning, I rinse with a 1% sulfite and ~
> .5% citric acid solution to sanitize instead of idophor. I just let it
> drip out and have at it. I have no idea if it has prevented problems,
> but don't have any and figure it's cheap insurance. If stink is any
> indicator, it kills lots of stuff... )

Well, I've been using iodophor for years for both winemaking and
brewing. One big bottle will last me for years. Each new bottle only
costs like ten bucks, so maybe three dollars per year is cheap enough
for me. As far as how well it works, well, lets say that I've met
other home winemakers that were dismayed that they had some kind of
problem that wine made from the same harvest of grapes that we bought
at the same store turned out differently. Maybe, just maybe, that has
something to do with sabitation techniques. I have done the sodium
percarbonate for cleaning, iodophor for sterlilizing regimen for
years, and so far...so good.

But, if anybody has some chemical or scientific reason why I shouldn't
use it, I'm open to the discussion.

Thanks,

Deadend

>
> But, if anybody has some chemical or scientific reason why I shouldn't
> use it, I'm open to the discussion.
>

One reason, although how much of a concern it is depends on how much
Iodine is left on the surface of the container. Iodine reacts with the
sulfites you may be (should be, IMHO) adding to protect your wine. If
there is significant Iodine present, you may need to add more sulfite
than you think you need. It also results in (I think) hydrogen
sulphate (HSO4).

I'm not a chemist, but this info came from one.

Andy

"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> >
> > But, if anybody has some chemical or scientific reason why I shouldn't
> > use it, I'm open to the discussion.
> >
>
> One reason, although how much of a concern it is depends on how much
> Iodine is left on the surface of the container. Iodine reacts with the
> sulfites you may be (should be, IMHO) adding to protect your wine. If
> there is significant Iodine present, you may need to add more sulfite
> than you think you need. It also results in (I think) hydrogen
> sulphate (HSO4).
>
> I'm not a chemist, but this info came from one.
>
> Andy
It can also seriously discolour the wine - based on my re-reading of my
cellar management notes from university. Commercially, we use sodium
percarbonate (aka Oxyper) for washing and sanitising, always followed by a
thorough water rinse (preferably hot water for both). If stains are
stubborn, we have used caustic soda, but I personally try to avoid doing so,
as it has significant OH&S issues. A slightly safer alternative to caustic,
as pointed out earlier by Tom S, is to use soda ash/washing soda/sodium
carbonate.

Cheers,

Andrew

"Fish Head" > wrote in message
...
> If you have any stainless steel ball bearings or a length of stainless
> steel chain, you can drop these into the keg and agitate the keg.

That's too much work! Just use a strong solution of sodium carbonate
(washing soda) in hot water to dissolve the tartrates and loosen any other
crud in the keg. Rinse with copious amounts of cold water and drain the keg
upside-down.

Tom S