In the recent thread "Clearing Red Wine" Tom S. made the comments

>My experience with bentonite in red wine is that even in small doses (~1-2
>lb/1000 gal) it can dramatically improve the nose and bring the fruit to
the
>fore on the palate.
>.....
>Fining is best done on a wine that is nearly or already clear. The idea is
>to improve the _flavor_ - not to achieve clarity, although improved clarity
>will frequently be a side benefit.

>The use of the right amounts of certain fining agents can turn a mediocre
>wine into a good wine, or a good wine into a _great_ wine!

>It's necessary to conduct fining trials on any specific wine to determine
>its best fining regimen, but that isn't really as hard to do as it sounds.

This is a real surprise to me - because I honestly thought that the purpose
of either fining
or filtering was primarily to clarify the wine. I had previously thought of
fining as an option
to strip tannin from a overly tannic wine (usually using gelatin or
egg-white) and may be that is
part of the equation - but my reading had always lead me to believe that
these sorts of
additives will "strip flavour" out of a wine and so I had been adverse to
using them.

I don't question Tom's comments - in fact quite the opposite, but I think
this topic is definitely one worth
discussing in more detail - because as winemakers who do not have control
over the grapes we use - it is
in the effective use of these techniques that we can make better wines.

So a few quick questions.
1. If fining can be used to make a flavour difference - can filtering also
be effective?
2. Tom spoke mostly about using bentonite - which fining agents have the
most to give as regards changing the flavour of a wine for the better?
3. Since the discussion in the reference post was about red wines - is the
same true for whites - and if so what advice would you have?

For example - I have a lightly oaked chardonnay - which spent only a brief
time in a barrel as part of the initial break in period of that barrel. I
realise that Tom would favour long term storage in a large barrel for his
chardonnays - and that may be the only answer to the specifics of this
issue - but the result of this brief oaking is a flavour profile of the
chardonnay in which the oak and the fruit are not well integrated. The oak
is not a smooth round full oak flavour, but more of an upfront oak bite. Can
a judiciuos fining smooth this out? And while I'm at it - how do you get
that diacetyl butterscotch flavour - in working with Oak and Malolactic and
lees stirring, I have managed to bring out oak flavours, toasty yeast
flavours, reduced fruitiness .... but I haven't managed to coax that
butterscotch vanilla taste out of the wine.

phew .... rant off...... thanks Steve.

"Steve Small" > wrote in message
...
> In the recent thread "Clearing Red Wine" Tom S. made the comments
>
> >My experience with bentonite in red wine is that even in small doses
(~1-2
> >lb/1000 gal) it can dramatically improve the nose and bring the fruit to
> the
> >fore on the palate.
> >.....
> >Fining is best done on a wine that is nearly or already clear. The idea
is
> >to improve the _flavor_ - not to achieve clarity, although improved
clarity
> >will frequently be a side benefit.
>
> >The use of the right amounts of certain fining agents can turn a mediocre
> >wine into a good wine, or a good wine into a _great_ wine!
>
> >It's necessary to conduct fining trials on any specific wine to determine
> >its best fining regimen, but that isn't really as hard to do as it
sounds.
>
> This is a real surprise to me - because I honestly thought that the
purpose
> of either fining
> or filtering was primarily to clarify the wine. I had previously thought
of
> fining as an option
> to strip tannin from a overly tannic wine (usually using gelatin or
> egg-white) and may be that is
> part of the equation - but my reading had always lead me to believe that
> these sorts of
> additives will "strip flavour" out of a wine and so I had been adverse to
> using them.
>
> I don't question Tom's comments - in fact quite the opposite, but I think
> this topic is definitely one worth
> discussing in more detail - because as winemakers who do not have control
> over the grapes we use - it is
> in the effective use of these techniques that we can make better wines.
>
> So a few quick questions.
> 1. If fining can be used to make a flavour difference - can filtering also
> be effective?

Absolutely! I just hate to get tho the point where that's the only good
option left. IMO, the best wines are the ones that are handled least
though.

> 2. Tom spoke mostly about using bentonite - which fining agents have the
> most to give as regards changing the flavour of a wine for the better?

In alphabetical order: bentonite, gelatin, isinglass, kieselsohl and skim
milk. Those are the only ones I have experience with. There are more, e.g.
egg whites. Personally, I didn't find egg whites to be very aggressive or
useful as a fining agent. Others may differ.

> 3. Since the discussion in the reference post was about red wines - is the
> same true for whites - and if so what advice would you have?

Fining is at _least_ as important for white wines.

> For example - I have a lightly oaked chardonnay - which spent only a brief
> time in a barrel as part of the initial break in period of that barrel. I
> realise that Tom would favour long term storage in a large barrel for his
> chardonnays - and that may be the only answer to the specifics of this
> issue - but the result of this brief oaking is a flavour profile of the
> chardonnay in which the oak and the fruit are not well integrated. The oak
> is not a smooth round full oak flavour, but more of an upfront oak bite.
Can
> a judiciuos fining smooth this out?

You didn't say whether this Chardonnay was barrel fermented or merely spent
some post-fermentation time in that new barrel. Also, it's necessary to
consider whether the barrel was new American, French or other oak.

Fining can definitely take the edge off of overoaking. Skim milk in
particular is a rather potent minus oak agent. I don't like using it for
just that reason. It will also strip color from wine. A typical light dose
would be about a quart (diluted with water 1 part skim milk diluted to 10
parts, with water, before mixing into the wine) per 1000 gallons.

And while I'm at it - how do you get
> that diacetyl butterscotch flavour - in working with Oak and Malolactic
and
> lees stirring, I have managed to bring out oak flavours, toasty yeast
> flavours, reduced fruitiness .... but I haven't managed to coax that
> butterscotch vanilla taste out of the wine.

From what I have read, diacetyl is absorbed by the lees. To maximize
diacetyl, ML is inoculated post fermentation after the wine has been racked
from its gross lees. Furthermore, the wine is then racked from the ML lees
at the completion of ML.

All of that is in apposition to sur lie aging. You have to decide to go one
way or the other. I suppose you could do _both_, but that's a logistical
PIA. I learned that lesson when I tried to make a no-ML barrel right
alongside a full ML barrel. Separate topping wines, being careful not to
inoculate the no-ML barrel from the other, etc. Too much trouble! Just
pick one style and focus on that.

Tom S

P.S. - Fining for flavor is a topic that merits a book, really. One post
doesn't do it much justice.

> In the recent thread "Clearing Red Wine" Tom S. made the comments
> >Fining is best done on a wine that is nearly or already clear. The idea is
> >to improve the _flavor_ - not to achieve clarity, although improved clarity
> >will frequently be a side benefit.

I wouldn't say the primary purpose in fining is to change flavour -
that's only part of it (though the idea is helpful). A wider view is
that fining is about removing *something* from wine. It could be for
flavour/aroma, but it's also done to remove bitterness, astringency,
hazes, and even colour.

> additives will "strip flavour" out of a wine and so I had been adverse to
> using them.

Whether they remove flavour specifically (i.e. flavour compounds, such
as esters for e.g.) is highly debatable. But certainly, they can
modify taste.

> 1. If fining can be used to make a flavour difference - can filtering also
> be effective?

That's also a highly debatable issue too (witness the debate amongst
wine critics etc). In so far as removing the influence the
particulates filtered would have on flavour, I'd say yes. But in
modifying the wine flavour beyond that, I'd say no.

> 2. Tom spoke mostly about using bentonite - which fining agents have the
> most to give as regards changing the flavour of a wine for the better?

Add to Tom's list: carbons, PVPP, tannin, and even the yeast itself!

> 3. Since the discussion in the reference post was about red wines - is the
> same true for whites - and if so what advice would you have?

Firstly, whites are more likely to be "hot unstable", so bentonite is
a biggy.
Secondly, whites *tend to be* more delicate so gentler fining agents
tend to be used (less egg whites and gelatine and more casein and
isinglass for example).

(Before anyone chimes in that gelatine is used extensivley in whites,
think of the white you're talking about: of course heavily oaked
Chardonnay can take it, but would you so readily gelatine fine a light
Riesling?)

> And while I'm at it - how do you get that diacetyl butterscotch flavour - in

As Tom says: rack before MLF inoculation and rack after (to minimise
the yeast and MLB populations, respectively). (Both yeast and LAB
reduce diacetyl.)

Maximum diacetyl concentration tends to coincide with the exhaustion
of malic acid during MLF so do the post-MLF racking as soon as MLF is
complete.

> butterscotch vanilla taste out of the wine.

BTW, the butterscotch flavour may well be an oak-diacetyl/MLF combo,
but the vanilla will come from the oak, not from the MLF.

Ben

Improved Winemaking
More about MLF: http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/MLF.htm
and lees: http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/Surlie.htm