On a recent thread Tom S mentioned that he no longer tests for TA, only
pH and I posted a query that was lost in the thread, so here it is again
since I would like to understand the rationale. Comments from Tom
especially or any others are most welcomed.
In a nutshell is it:
1) Higher TA tends to take care of itself through tartrate precipitation
2) since pH and TA are interrelated you can't change one without
affecting the other therefore test only when you can do something about
it so focus only on the pH
Am I right on assuming this rationale?

Anyway, here is a repeat of my original query.
----------
I realize the importance of pH to the stability of the wine,
particularly SO2 requirements but don't understand why you don't monitor
TA as well. Everything I've read suggests that TA determines the
acidity taste by 10 to 1 over pH. In the event of a must with the pH in
the "normal" range and the TA much higher don't you risk a wine that is
too acidic tastewise. For example, I now have a Riesling-Geisenheim
blend that is almost fermented out and has a pH of 3.29 and a TA of 11.2
g/l which I think is too high so I'm inclined to lower the TA to at
least 9.0 keeping in mind that I am making an off-dry wine.

Of course the taste-test is always important but it is difficult to
sense the acidity by taste until it is fermented out somewhat.

I'd be interested in your thoughts particularly on the TA of my blend.

Cheers,

Glen Duff

>On a recent thread Tom S mentioned that he no longer tests for TA, only
>pH and I posted a query that was lost in the thread, so here it is again
>since I would like to understand the rationale. Comments from Tom
>especially or any others are most welcomed.
>In a nutshell is it:
>1) Higher TA tends to take care of itself through tartrate precipitation

Tom makes wine from high quality California grapes, which tend to have
good to low TA. My guess is that he has the same philosophy as I do:
you can taste the TA if it's out of whack... no need to test it.

I titrate TA's at harvest to provide a base language (a number
everyone understands, not just "hey, that's tart!") to converse with
my growers. From then on it's basically a taste test.


ph is montiored closely at our place as it has such an integral effect
on wine quality.


>2) since pH and TA are interrelated you can't change one without
>affecting the other therefore test only when you can do something about
>it so focus only on the pH

Yes, if you adjust one the other changes, but that doesn't mean you
don't ever need to adjust the TA.

Typically, I adjust pH up front, before fermentation, and then if
needed, the TA gets adjusted just prior to bottling, when you know
it's stabilized. Note that in our part of the world, we rarely (read
"never" in my case) raise the TA on a dry wine.


>Am I right on assuming this rationale?
>
>Anyway, here is a repeat of my original query.
>----------
>I realize the importance of pH to the stability of the wine,
>particularly SO2 requirements but don't understand why you don't monitor
>TA as well. Everything I've read suggests that TA determines the
>acidity taste by 10 to 1 over pH. In the event of a must with the pH in
>the "normal" range and the TA much higher don't you risk a wine that is
>too acidic tastewise. For example, I now have a Riesling-Geisenheim
>blend that is almost fermented out and has a pH of 3.29 and a TA of 11.2
>g/l which I think is too high so I'm inclined to lower the TA to at
>least 9.0 keeping in mind that I am making an off-dry wine.
>


>Of course the taste-test is always important but it is difficult to
>sense the acidity by taste until it is fermented out somewhat.
>

This is true, and only experience can help. Practice, practice,
practice. Until you're comfortable with your palate, it's good idea
to titrate along with the tasting.

>I'd be interested in your thoughts particularly on the TA of my blend.

The TA you're experiencing is why that style of wine often has some
level of sugar to balance the acid. Even if you *think* you don't
like that much sugar in a wine, you'd be suprised at how nice the wine
can be if simply balanced properly. Put your mind aside when you sit
down to finish the wine. Let the palate dictate the outcome.

clyde

On 11/6/03 9:35 AM, in article ,
"Clyde Gill" > wrote:

> Put your mind aside when you sit
> down to finish the wine. Let the palate dictate the outcome.

This is sage advice worthy of repeating. I am slowly learning to do this.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email)

Glen Duff wrote "here is a repeat of my original query. I realize the
importance of pH to the stability of the wine, particularly SO2 requirements
but don't understand why you don't monitor TA as well. Everything I've read
suggests that TA determines the acidity taste by 10 to 1 over pH."
For example, I now have a Riesling-Geisenheim blend that is almost fermented
out and has a pH of 3.29 and a TA of 11.2 g/l which I think is too high so
I'm inclined to lower the TA to at least 9.0 keeping in mind that I am
making an off-dry wine.

Glen - I agree that your 11.2 grams/liter is too high. Even if you add
enough sugar to make the wine drinkable you will still burn a hole in your
stomach after a glass or two. I've always been curious about what makes
good wine. So, when I've purchased commercial wine I've set aside a small
glass for testing. I've only run into two wines with TAs above 9
grams/liter...my notes say both were VERY acidic and too acidic to enjoy.
Most white wines I've tested have TAs in the 6 to high 7 grams/liter.

I agree with you that lowering the 11.2 grams/liter is in order. What was
the TA before fermentation? I ask because a kit I made had a nice TA before
fermentation only to have the TA be much higher after the wine had fermented
dry. This happened on some Santa Clara juice I fermented also.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

"Greg Cook" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/6/03 9:35 AM, in article ,
> "Clyde Gill" > wrote:
>
> > Put your mind aside when you sit
> > down to finish the wine. Let the palate dictate the outcome.
>
> This is sage advice worthy of repeating. I am slowly learning to do this.

Isn't it odd that we tend to abandon our own senses and trust titrations and
meters to tell us when a wine _should_ be good? I had to come full circle
on this too. In the end, it comes down to a variation on "measure twice,
cut once".

Tom S

Glen
I work with similar acidic grapes and still measure TA. If anything, I
go to the other extreme, at times I sacrifice higher pH (>3.6) in
favor of lower acid. I have never been able to make a dry white wine
with a TA above 6.5 that was not too tart. I really try to get the
acid below 8.g/l, even if sweetening. Even though it seems balanced
initially, I notice the acid shine through on anything I sweeten that
has a TA above 8 g/l if you try another glass. It just seem to
overpower the fruit and any sweetness.

I agree taste is everything and maybe someday my palate will be as
good a guide as the instruments. I use the equipment to get me close.
I also keep notes, so have a good idea of what I usually like though.

The danger in using numbers only came to the fore a few years back on
my Chenin Blancs. On paper, they were right where I wanted them. I'm
sure they were grossly overcropped now, since they taste more like
acidic water after a few years. Chenin in past years with those
numbers never came out like that, I really liked them. Technically
they are sound but practically they are very dull. They are nice as
blending wines, since they are pretty neutral.

My equipment never gets tired either, but I do... If the TA and my
palate are in disagreement, I stop and test another time or another
day now. Patience is not my strong suite,so I have to really force
myself to take my time.

TA is pretty easy to measure, so I really see no reason to take a
reality check out of the equation just yet.

Regards,
Joe





Glen Duff > wrote in message >...
> On a recent thread Tom S mentioned that he no longer tests for TA, only
> pH and I posted a query that was lost in the thread, so here it is again
> since I would like to understand the rationale. Comments from Tom
> especially or any others are most welcomed.
> In a nutshell is it:
> 1) Higher TA tends to take care of itself through tartrate precipitation
> 2) since pH and TA are interrelated you can't change one without
> affecting the other therefore test only when you can do something about
> it so focus only on the pH
> Am I right on assuming this rationale?
>
> Anyway, here is a repeat of my original query.
> ----------
> I realize the importance of pH to the stability of the wine,
> particularly SO2 requirements but don't understand why you don't monitor
> TA as well. Everything I've read suggests that TA determines the
> acidity taste by 10 to 1 over pH. In the event of a must with the pH in
> the "normal" range and the TA much higher don't you risk a wine that is
> too acidic tastewise. For example, I now have a Riesling-Geisenheim
> blend that is almost fermented out and has a pH of 3.29 and a TA of 11.2
> g/l which I think is too high so I'm inclined to lower the TA to at
> least 9.0 keeping in mind that I am making an off-dry wine.
>
> Of course the taste-test is always important but it is difficult to
> sense the acidity by taste until it is fermented out somewhat.
>
> I'd be interested in your thoughts particularly on the TA of my blend.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Glen Duff

"Glen Duff" > wrote in message
...
> On a recent thread Tom S mentioned that he no longer tests for TA, only
> pH and I posted a query that was lost in the thread, so here it is again
> since I would like to understand the rationale. Comments from Tom
> especially or any others are most welcomed.
> In a nutshell is it:
> 1) Higher TA tends to take care of itself through tartrate precipitation
> 2) since pH and TA are interrelated you can't change one without
> affecting the other therefore test only when you can do something about
> it so focus only on the pH
> Am I right on assuming this rationale?

That works for me.

> Anyway, here is a repeat of my original query.
> ----------
> I realize the importance of pH to the stability of the wine,
> particularly SO2 requirements but don't understand why you don't monitor
> TA as well. Everything I've read suggests that TA determines the
> acidity taste by 10 to 1 over pH. In the event of a must with the pH in
> the "normal" range and the TA much higher don't you risk a wine that is
> too acidic tastewise. For example, I now have a Riesling-Geisenheim
> blend that is almost fermented out and has a pH of 3.29 and a TA of 11.2
> g/l which I think is too high so I'm inclined to lower the TA to at
> least 9.0 keeping in mind that I am making an off-dry wine.

That sounds pretty tart, but it might be OK for an off-dry wine - especially
if you want to cellar it for a long time. I've seen TAs that high on some
of the Chateau St Jean whites. The pH is within the normal range for that
type of wine, so I'd tend not to diddle it unless it really seemed too
acidic on the palate. Does it? Degas a sample with a Vac-U-Vin, taste it
and let us know.

Tom S

Glen - One more question. Did you cold condition this wine? If so did the
TA fall? If not you might want to run a couple of samples before you treat
the wine chemically. I put samples in the frig and freezer. Then thaw the
frozen sample and test both cold conditioned samples against the bulk wine.
You can drop a lot a acid out of a wine by freezing.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas