I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a
cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during
the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into
the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my
last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I
could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I
protect the wine when it is necessary.

Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now,
but haven't yet.

Dan

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
om...
> I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
> I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
> when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a
> cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during
> the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into
> the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my
> last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I
> could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I
> protect the wine when it is necessary.
>
> Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now,
> but haven't yet.
>
> Dan

Dan,
I think pressing "when the cap falls" is a poor criteria. Of course, the
cap usually falls soon after the sugar is gone, but it is sometimes
difficult to estimate the state of the cap. Pressing "when the sugar is
nearly gone" seems like a better method because sugar can be easily
estimated with a hydrometer.
lum

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
om...
> I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
> I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
> when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like?

When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I
have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky to
wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and know
what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness.

Tom S

Tom has a good point. In order for the cap to "fall", the cap must be
fairly free of trapped CO2 bubbles. I practice extended maceration and use
cap fall as the point where I protect the headspace with Argon (you could
use N as well). As Tom pointed out, you may not observe cap fall as it
depends on your cap managment practice. I practice rack and return with a
good stirring in of the cap twice a day through the duration of primary
fermentation. This allows me to see the point of cap fall easily since I
purge the cap of trapped gas regularly. If you decide to try extended
maceration, make sure you protect your wine with Argon or Nitrogen in a
covered container. Also, aeration during primary fermentation is critical
if you are going to use extended maceration since H2S problems can become
mercaptan problems during EM.

Cheers and Good Luck!!
Aaron

"Tom S" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
> > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
> > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like?
>
> When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I
> have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky
to
> wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and
know
> what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness.
>
> Tom S
>
>

The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have
been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines
when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.

I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts
dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it
has not been keeping well.

Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

Ray

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
om...
> I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
> I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
> when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a
> cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during
> the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into
> the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my
> last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I
> could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I
> protect the wine when it is necessary.
>
> Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now,
> but haven't yet.
>
> Dan

When you say they haven't been keeping well, what do you mean?


"Ray" > wrote in message
...
> The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
> until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I
have
> been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines
> when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
> I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
>
> I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
> wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts
> dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but
it
> has not been keeping well.
>
> Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.
>
> Ray
>
> "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
> > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
> > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a
> > cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during
> > the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into
> > the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my
> > last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I
> > could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I
> > protect the wine when it is necessary.
> >
> > Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now,
> > but haven't yet.
> >
> > Dan
>
>

"Ray" > wrote in message >.. .
> The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
> until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have
> been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines
> when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
> I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
>
> I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
> wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts
> dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it
> has not been keeping well.
>
> Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.
>
> Ray
>

I have one theory. One of the reasons extended maceration is used is
to soften a wine. The increased time on the skins actually helps the
tannins polymerize into longer chains which settle out more quickly.

If it is over-done, you could be left with little or no tannins. This
is fine for an early drinking wine, but tannin can help a wine age
gracefully.

Andy

"Ray" > wrote in message
...
> The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
> until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I
have
> been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines
> when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
> I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
>
> I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
> wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts
> dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but
it
> has not been keeping well.
>
> Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

Could be the structure of the wine was never appropriate for long term
aging. If the pH was on the high side and/or you used minimal SO2 that
could account for the short aging potential.

Tom S

If you are punching down your wine the skins should be under the level of
the juice after each punch down. When no more CO2 is being released the cap
won't so much as 'fall' as it will stop rising out of the must. This will
coincide with hydrometer showing no more sugar to ferment. I've been making
Cabernet and Merlot and I usually press at about 2 weeks with plenty of
tannins, but not too much.

Brian

"Tom S" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
> > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
> > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like?
>
> When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I
> have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky
to
> wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and
know
> what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness.
>
> Tom S
>
>

Hi Andy,

I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have you
experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe some
very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days of
extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine.

CHEERS!

Aaron


"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> "Ray" > wrote in message
>.. .
> > The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and
waiting
> > until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I
have
> > been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the
wines
> > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3
years.
> > I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
> >
> > I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
> > wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap
starts
> > dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable
but it
> > has not been keeping well.
> >
> > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.
> >
> > Ray
> >
>
> I have one theory. One of the reasons extended maceration is used is
> to soften a wine. The increased time on the skins actually helps the
> tannins polymerize into longer chains which settle out more quickly.
>
> If it is over-done, you could be left with little or no tannins. This
> is fine for an early drinking wine, but tannin can help a wine age
> gracefully.
>
> Andy

Ray,

> when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
> I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
> Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

What quality of fruit are you using? What's your pH typically? I'm
sure you know that without using fruit that can handle extended
maceration (i.e. high quantity of ripe tannins, fruit character, etc)
there's no point in EM. Have you noticed the wines' tannin profiles
softening considerably during EM? Both the qualitative and
quantitative qualities of phenols play a huge role in the success of
EM.

Ben

"Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message >...
> Hi Andy,
>
> I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have you
> experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe some
> very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days of
> extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine.
>
> CHEERS!
>
> Aaron
>

Yes, but they are starting with grapes that contain higher tannin
levels than (at least I) get in my grapes shipped from California.

Who are the wineries doing the extended maceration that long? The
wineries I know that use (or used) extended maceration tend to be on
the early drinking side rather than the long lasters. Of course, in
general, new world producers have that reputation anyway.

Extended maceration promotes polymerization of the tannins resulting
in a softer wine. UC Davis literature includes this comment concerning
extended maceration :

"The surface of the skin cells may additionally
provide a nucleating center for the precipitation or polymerization of
compounds,decreasing their concentration in the wine."

I have also experienced this myself when doing extended maceration.
The tannin level may increase over the short term, but then the
tannins soften and round out. If you start with a wine that has little
tannin to begin with and employ extended maceration, this could cause
a further reduction of the already low tannin level.

There is also some indication (in other references)that extended
maceration can reduce the acid content of the must due to an increase
in the potassium extracted from the skins causing more acid to form
bitartrate which precipitates out.

BTW, UC Davis appears to believe that extended maceration does nothing
to increase the extraction from the skins:

"Several studies have shown that both extended maceration and cold
soak do not really impact the level of skin components in the wine, as
the principle factor enhancing extraction is high temperature."


Andy

I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking about
maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with
actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest "macerators"
that I am aware of a

USA:
Opus
Mondavi
Signorello
Luna

ABROAD:
Artessa
Arboleda / Caliterra
Chateau Clinet
Chteau Prieuré-Lichine
Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in
Bordeaux)


Mondavi uses long maceration at elevated temperatures.
Here is an interesting article on Mondavi's new Cabernet facility...
http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb01p21.htm

Excerpt: "Extended maceration (35 days on average) at warm temperatures
(83°F) enhances further extraction
of tannin substrates from the grape skins while hastening the reactions of
polymerization. This results in
substantial yet approachable wines with enhanced color stability." Also
mentioned in the article is Halan Estate which uses the same type of large
oak primary fermentors and I imaging they use a long maceration time as
well.

You are absolutely correct in your implication that extended maceration is
best employed only when very good fruit is available such that available
extract is high. I also agree with you that extraction is primarily a
matter of temperature. I think there is much debate, however, on the
benefits/merit of extended maceration. I think the benefits of extended
maceration has more to do with modifying the extract rather than increasing
the extract. Take Mondavi as an example. Their new Cabernet facility uses
oak fermentation tanks which allow the maceration temperature to be kept
higher through the duration of skin contact. This is a direct departure
from the direction they insisted on for Opus, namely stainless steel
fermentation tanks. Both Mondavi and Opus practice extended maceration at
elevated (~80-85F) temperatures but the difference lies in the type of
fermentor. Oak vessels also "breath" allowing very slow oxygenation of the
wine during maceration. StaVin has some interesting information on their
website about the role of oxygen and oak in wine tannin and color
stabilization. It appears that oxygen action on the wine produces small
amounts of acetaldehyde which can cause crosslinking reactions in
tannin-anthocyanin complexes helping to keep them in solution. StaVin
claims that certain extractable compounds from toasted oak can also cause
these crosslinking reactions. They also claim that in the absence of oxygen
and oak extractables, polymerization of tannins in a reductive environment
will lead to precipitation of tannin and color constituents.

So much to learn so little time!!

CHEERS!

Aaron



"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> "Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message
>...
> > Hi Andy,
> >
> > I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have
you
> > experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe
some
> > very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days
of
> > extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine.
> >
> > CHEERS!
> >
> > Aaron
> >
>
> Yes, but they are starting with grapes that contain higher tannin
> levels than (at least I) get in my grapes shipped from California.
>
> Who are the wineries doing the extended maceration that long? The
> wineries I know that use (or used) extended maceration tend to be on
> the early drinking side rather than the long lasters. Of course, in
> general, new world producers have that reputation anyway.
>
> Extended maceration promotes polymerization of the tannins resulting
> in a softer wine. UC Davis literature includes this comment concerning
> extended maceration :
>
> "The surface of the skin cells may additionally
> provide a nucleating center for the precipitation or polymerization of
> compounds,decreasing their concentration in the wine."
>
> I have also experienced this myself when doing extended maceration.
> The tannin level may increase over the short term, but then the
> tannins soften and round out. If you start with a wine that has little
> tannin to begin with and employ extended maceration, this could cause
> a further reduction of the already low tannin level.
>
> There is also some indication (in other references)that extended
> maceration can reduce the acid content of the must due to an increase
> in the potassium extracted from the skins causing more acid to form
> bitartrate which precipitates out.
>
> BTW, UC Davis appears to believe that extended maceration does nothing
> to increase the extraction from the skins:
>
> "Several studies have shown that both extended maceration and cold
> soak do not really impact the level of skin components in the wine, as
> the principle factor enhancing extraction is high temperature."
>
>
> Andy

"Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message >.. .
> I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking about
> maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with
> actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest "macerators"
> that I am aware of a

I like that term macerators. Somehow it has a nice ring to it :-)

>
> USA:
> Opus
> Mondavi
> Signorello
> Luna
>
> ABROAD:
> Artessa
> Arboleda / Caliterra
> Chateau Clinet
> Chteau Prieuré-Lichine
> Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in
> Bordeaux)
>

I'm still waiting for a list of the "very fine CA cabernets and blend
producers". Sorry, that was a political statement better left un-said,
but I couldn't resist. I have lost a lot of respect for Mondavi,
especially since Tim Mondavi took over. IMHO, Opus is not and has
never been worth the money they get. It was nothing more than a
marketing scheme for the first "cult" wine from CA. Signorello and
Luna I really don't know much about, but that also says something to
me.

Yes, I think Bordeaux probably pratices this more than most areas but
they also have the fruit that requires it if they want to drink the
wine near term. This allows some wine makers to produce what is
refered to as "international" style wines (BTW, I don't like the term,
personally). Early drinking, fruit forward but without the staying
power of the more traditional styles.

Bordeaux from the likes of Lafite, Latour, Mouton, etc. can be tannic
monsters at release and require many years of aging to come into their
own. If they use extended maceration, I'd hate to think what the wine
is like before hand.


Andy

"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> "Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message
>.. .
> > I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking
about
> > maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with
> > actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest
"macerators"
> > that I am aware of a
>
> I like that term macerators. Somehow it has a nice ring to it :-)
>
> >
> > USA:
> > Opus
> > Mondavi
> > Signorello
> > Luna
> >
> > ABROAD:
> > Artessa
> > Arboleda / Caliterra
> > Chateau Clinet
> > Chteau Prieuré-Lichine
> > Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in
> > Bordeaux)
> >
>
> I'm still waiting for a list of the "very fine CA cabernets and blend
> producers". Sorry, that was a political statement better left un-said,
> but I couldn't resist. I have lost a lot of respect for Mondavi,
> especially since Tim Mondavi took over. IMHO, Opus is not and has
> never been worth the money they get. It was nothing more than a
> marketing scheme for the first "cult" wine from CA. Signorello and
> Luna I really don't know much about, but that also says something to
> me.
>
> Yes, I think Bordeaux probably pratices this more than most areas but
> they also have the fruit that requires it if they want to drink the
> wine near term. This allows some wine makers to produce what is
> refered to as "international" style wines (BTW, I don't like the term,
> personally). Early drinking, fruit forward but without the staying
> power of the more traditional styles.
>
> Bordeaux from the likes of Lafite, Latour, Mouton, etc. can be tannic
> monsters at release and require many years of aging to come into their
> own. If they use extended maceration, I'd hate to think what the wine
> is like before hand.
>
>
> Andy

Are they "Tannic Monsters" because of the grape or because they use a lot of
new oak?
I don't know, but I am curious.

I have to agree that $150 for a bottle of Opus One is excessive. I do, on
the other hand, appreciate what they do considering the scale of their
operation. In my opinion it is a very good $50-$75 bottle of wine. To
balance the discussion, I believe Shafer does not practice extended
maceration at all but then again, their best are in the barrel for two years
and the bottle for one...

To be honest, this whole discussion drives me crazy! I would really like to
know what the best methods are for a given wine style but it seems that
there are many more opinions than scienctific studies. I think it would be
good for people on this newsgroup to do their own studies and report the
findings to the group.

From my own limited studies, the jury is still out on extended maceration
but I have found the following methods beneficial:
- Pump over w/ aeration + cap stirring (first pump over with venturi
aeration, saturate cap and stir well)
- ~100ppm Lysozyme immediately after crushing to inhibit wild ML
bacteria (results in cleaner aromas in my studies)
- Oak beans in primary fermentation (Medium to heavy toasted oak beans -
seems to help stabilize color and gives VERY well integrated toasty aromas)

It is a worthwhile study to determine what methods the very good to
excellent producers are using consistently. While there are methods like EM
that may just be a matter of stylistic choice and market positioning, there
are other methods that perhaps should be included in a "core set of best
practices" for high quality red winemaking.

CHEERS!

Aaron

"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> "Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message
>.. .
> > I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking
about
> > maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with
> > actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest
"macerators"
> > that I am aware of a
>
> I like that term macerators. Somehow it has a nice ring to it :-)
>
> >
> > USA:
> > Opus
> > Mondavi
> > Signorello
> > Luna
> >
> > ABROAD:
> > Artessa
> > Arboleda / Caliterra
> > Chateau Clinet
> > Chteau Prieuré-Lichine
> > Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in
> > Bordeaux)
> >
>
> I'm still waiting for a list of the "very fine CA cabernets and blend
> producers". Sorry, that was a political statement better left un-said,
> but I couldn't resist. I have lost a lot of respect for Mondavi,
> especially since Tim Mondavi took over. IMHO, Opus is not and has
> never been worth the money they get. It was nothing more than a
> marketing scheme for the first "cult" wine from CA. Signorello and
> Luna I really don't know much about, but that also says something to
> me.
>
> Yes, I think Bordeaux probably pratices this more than most areas but
> they also have the fruit that requires it if they want to drink the
> wine near term. This allows some wine makers to produce what is
> refered to as "international" style wines (BTW, I don't like the term,
> personally). Early drinking, fruit forward but without the staying
> power of the more traditional styles.
>
> Bordeaux from the likes of Lafite, Latour, Mouton, etc. can be tannic
> monsters at release and require many years of aging to come into their
> own. If they use extended maceration, I'd hate to think what the wine
> is like before hand.
>
>
> Andy

> To be honest, this whole discussion drives me crazy! I would really like to
> know what the best methods are for a given wine style but it seems that
> there are many more opinions than scienctific studies. I think it would be
> good for people on this newsgroup to do their own studies and report the
> findings to the group.

I agree! However, I think that most home winemakers simply don't go
into that kind of scientific detail. Even to conduct simple
experiments is a massive undertaking when considering the proper
scientific method (controls, reproducibility, correct analysis, etc).

If you really want to find the best methods then things get
complicated because it depends on thorough understanding of the
processes involved, the wine style (as you said), and the type and
quality of fruit. Within these dependants is a minefield of issues.
Pumping over with aeration and cap stirring may be successful for your
fruit, but to really look at best methods in general requires looking
at the fruit and wine style composition that that method was
successful for.

Still, there are some methods which seem to work more universally
(e.g. the better integration from oak bean addition during
fermentation rather than after which you mentioned). In addition to
that, there are probably many ways to get to a similar place in
winemaking. So I still agree. We can all do our small bit to further
the general knowledge of best practises etc, and maybe as a collective
whole the difference this makes will be considerable.

Ultimately though, a "core set of best practices" is an ideal which
may never be reached. (And anyway, wouldn't these be more likely to be
about practises where there is less variation in methods between
winemakers? Maceration regimes are a perfect example of something
where there *is* a lot of variance.) I think it's one of the great
things about winemaking that there are so many variables and therefore
so much there's so much variety.

Ben

"Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message
...
> When you say they haven't been keeping well, what do you mean?
>

When 1 to 2 years old they tend to be very fruity and nicely ballanced.
After 2 years they start developing an off taste. I cannot specify what
type of taste it is, just that it is not especially pleasant. It gets worse
with time. I am not sure if it is something I have done, an infection that
only shows up after 2 years, or what.

Ray


>
> "Ray" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and
waiting
> > until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I
> have
> > been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the
wines
> > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3
years.
> > I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
> >
> > I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
> > wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap
starts
> > dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable
but
> it
> > has not been keeping well.
> >
> > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.
> >
> > Ray

Replying to several posts above:

Ben, I have used Lodi Merlot, Shiraz, and Cab Sauv. and Merlot, Cab.
Franc, and Cab Sauv. from they east coast in different years. The wine does
soften through maceration and I prefer softer reds. Beyond these comments,
I am not sure.

Brian: I punch down until the cap stops rising then I just check it every
day not wanting to expose it too much. I may be getting to much air to it
but oxidation has not been a problem up to an age of 2 years.

Tom S.: Some of these wines have been high pH, high TA wines. For others
the pH was about right. I only started checking SO2 levels recently and
that may be a problem. But they do not seem to be oxidized.

Ray


"Ben Rotter" > wrote in message
om...
> Ray,
>
> > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3
years.
> > I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
> > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.
>
> What quality of fruit are you using? What's your pH typically? I'm
> sure you know that without using fruit that can handle extended
> maceration (i.e. high quantity of ripe tannins, fruit character, etc)
> there's no point in EM. Have you noticed the wines' tannin profiles
> softening considerably during EM? Both the qualitative and
> quantitative qualities of phenols play a huge role in the success of
> EM.
>
> Ben

(Ben Rotter) wrote in message . com>...
>>
>I think it's one of the great
> things about winemaking that there are so many variables and therefore
> so much there's so much variety.
>
> Ben


Hi Ben,

Well said.

Andy

"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message >...
>
> Are they "Tannic Monsters" because of the grape or because they use a lot of
> new oak?
> I don't know, but I am curious.

From the grapes. The use of a lot of new oak is more prevelant in
California and Australia than it is in Bordeaux. Bordeaux tends to put
a percentage of the wine in new oak and the rest in old oak. The
percentage not only changes from house to house but from vintage to
vintage at the same house, but 40%-60% is not uncommon.

The only wines I know of that use 200% new oak come from the US
(stress, "I know of"). And yes, that is 200%. They age for a year in
new oak then transfer to another set of new barrels for additional
aging. This isn't common, but it is done.

Personally, I think they react to the grapes they get that year in
Bordeaux more so than most California wine makers who want a
consistant product from year to year. Of course they get a lot more
variability in weather from year to year in Bordeaux, so it comes from
necessity.

Of course, these are all very broad generalities. There are many
exceptions.

Andy

When fermentation is finished and the cap starts to fall is there an
optimum time I should leave the wine before I press? I can cover the
must with cellophane.

As long as you have a tank of CO2, N2, or Ar, best to use your taste buds
every few days after cap fall since you can use your inert gas to protect
the wine after each sampling. From my own experience with extended
maceration, I suggest that you press the wine no more 2 weeks after cap
fall. The riper your fruit, the longer you can go. There is a point after
cap fall where the tannins soften substantially but the wine still has good
backbone. It's more of a mid-pallate change where the wine feels smooth and
full in the mouth but still has noticeable tannin after the wine is
swallowed. Of course, to notice this change you need to be tasting the wine
on a regular basis as cap fall approaches.

As an aside - If anyone wants to see the benefits of extended maceration,
try it with Sangiovese. I was floored myself by the difference aeration and
EM makes with this variety.

CHEERS!

Aaron


"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> When fermentation is finished and the cap starts to fall is there an
> optimum time I should leave the wine before I press? I can cover the
> must with cellophane.

Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will
cellophane do the job?

"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will
> cellophane do the job?

A sheet of plastic, smoothed down against the surface of the wine and held
down with flat pieces of wood will work. You could even just pour water on
the top of the plastic to hold it in place, but you'd need to be careful not
to get it into the wine. In either case, you want to spritz the edges
lightly with sulfite to keep stuff from growing there, and wipe that area
down when you check the wine.

Tom S

Thank you for the suggestion Tom.

Tom is right on. If you don't have inert gas to work with your number one
concern will be acetobacteria in the headspace. By keeping the plastic on
tight (Before I purchased Argon tanks, I would cover with plastic and use
duct tape around the perimeter) you will minimize the amount of oxygen and
keep out bacteria sources (i.e. bugs and dust). Using sulfite as Tom
suggests will kill surface bacteria. I prefer to use a clean cloth dampened
with a strong sulfite/acid solution to wipe the inside sides and edges of
the container rather than spray but either method should work just fine.

During EM I taste my wines every few days starting about a week after cap
fall. Opening the cover this often is not an issue for me as I have Argon
to blanket after each tasting. You may want to limit your tasting to once
at cap fall, at one week and again at 2 weeks. (I typically go between 15
and 20 days of EM) To minimize the number of times you open the cover,
whenever you taste, make sure you will be able to press that day if need be.
If you haven't done EM before, what you want to look for is a change in the
mouthfeel of the wine. It will change from being obviously young and tannic
in the mouth to being softer and more full. From my experience it is more a
mid-pallate change as the tannins are still apparent after you swallow the
wine.

CHEERS and GOOD LUCK!

Aaron


"Tom S" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Jim" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will
> > cellophane do the job?
>
> A sheet of plastic, smoothed down against the surface of the wine and held
> down with flat pieces of wood will work. You could even just pour water
on
> the top of the plastic to hold it in place, but you'd need to be careful
not
> to get it into the wine. In either case, you want to spritz the edges
> lightly with sulfite to keep stuff from growing there, and wipe that area
> down when you check the wine.
>
> Tom S
>
>