The problem with making your own press in the manner of the
basket presses is buying and installing the central metal screw.
Someone (Joe?) posted a technique for pressing with 3 pails and
that seems like an idea to consider. I was thinking that a
lever with weights at the end might be a good as well and
more in the traditional basket press style. Something like
this:

|
|o==============o============================o
| | |
| |
| |
| / \
| / \
| / \
| | | / _____ \
| | | / | W | \
| | | / ----- \
|===============| -------------
| o o o |
| o o |
| o o o o o|
|___________________|
\\


Anyone know how much pressure a standard basket press exerts?

Don

Don,

I know that a hydraulic bladder press operates at about 30psi, so if you
have a 10" diameter basket, that's about 78 sq in. Times 30, that's
over 2300 lbs of weight on a one-to-one lever system. Note that as drawn
your press has an effort arm (pivot to weight) about three times the
length of the resistance arm (pivot to basket). This gives you a
mechanical advantage of 3:1, so you would only need 1/3 the weight
calculated. With a long enough lever arm, you could probably get the
weight down to something manageable, but be sure to build stoutly.

I actually know of an antique press of this design, probably from the
1800's. At a farm museum kinda place in Beemerville, NJ. It had a basket
dia. of maybe 8", so it would need only about 2/3 the weight mentioned
above. It had its two back legs close together with the lever pivoting
between their top ends, and I think there was some kind of simple rope
turnbuckle to pull down on the far end of the lever. Perhaps a small
hydraulic jack could be used to push _down_ on the lever from above?
Just an idea.

HTH, Mike MTM



Don S wrote:


> |
> |o==============o============================o
> | | |
> | |
> | |
> | / \
> | / \
> | / \
> | | | / _____ \
> | | | / | W | \
> | | | / ----- \
> |===============| -------------
> | o o o |
> | o o |
> | o o o o o|
> |___________________|
> \\
>
>

> I know that a hydraulic bladder press operates at about 30psi, so if you
> have a 10" diameter basket, that's about 78 sq in. Times 30, that's
> over 2300 lbs of weight on a one-to-one lever system. Note that as drawn
> your press has an effort arm (pivot to weight) about three times the
> length of the resistance arm (pivot to basket). This gives you a
> mechanical advantage of 3:1, so you would only need 1/3 the weight
> calculated. With a long enough lever arm, you could probably get the
> weight down to something manageable, but be sure to build stoutly.

Mike,
Are your sure about the calculation where you arrive at 2300
pounds? Wouldn't I only have to think about the 30 psi and ensure
I get that pressure on my round (or square) pressing plate?

Actually that does sound about right if you think about a 1 foot
square plate. That would be 144 sq inches, times 30 psi for 4320 pds.
Both numbers just seem like alot more weight then I thought it would
need. Even with the 3:1 multiplier that would be 767 pds in your
case and 1440 pds for my mine.

Is the 3:1 ratio set by the distance from the start of the cross
beam to the down tube and from the down tube to where the weight
is suspended, B/A in the below:

| B | B |
|o==============o============================o


I was considering a single 2x4 for the cross beam but perhaps
two would be better, something like this when viewed from the top:

|--------------------------------
hinge | O weight
|--------------------------------


Don

"Don S" > wrote in message
om...
> > I know that a hydraulic bladder press operates at about 30psi

I run my bladder press at about 3 Bar, which is closer to 50 PSI. You need
a hydraulic ram or a screw device with a _long_ handle to achieve that kind
of pressure over a large platen. A simple lever arrangement won't cut it.

> > if you
> > have a 10" diameter basket, that's about 78 sq in. Times 30, that's
> > over 2300 lbs of weight on a one-to-one lever system.

Correct.

> Are your sure about the calculation where you arrive at 2300
> pounds? Wouldn't I only have to think about the 30 psi and ensure
> I get that pressure on my round (or square) pressing plate?

Yes, but remember that psi = pounds per square inch. You have to multiply
the 30 by the number of square inches of plate.

Building something like this from scratch isn't easy or cheap. That's why I
suggested renting or buying a press. You could always sell it if you decide
winemaking isn't for you.

Tom S

I built an 18" diameter press from Maple and it is beautiful and works like
a charm, however I am not sure I actually saved any money! (materials were
close to $500). That hard eastern maple is really expensive, especially
where you need 4 x 6 beams. I used an 8000 lb capacity tongue jack to
provide the pressure, which gives me roughly 28 psi on the follower. I had a
machine shop drill, roll and weld two hoops and I cut, beveled, sanded ,
drilled, and epoxied each slat before bolting it in. It sounds like, and is,
a lot of work. Suggest buying ready made unless you like doing that sort of
thing! The tongue jack works great as you don't have to use a lot of blocks
etc. You just pull a pin, drop the foot to the follower, and slowly start
pushing it down. I use a large mesh bag, but may make a bag out of the poly
screen they use for screen doors. I can press a 40 gallon batch of red in 2
loads, and press the skins as dry as I will ever want them. With a larger
bag I can probably do it in one load. It works great!
(If you make it beautiful it will raise your stock with womenfolk as well,
may offset some of the cost)
"Tom S" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Don S" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > I know that a hydraulic bladder press operates at about 30psi
>
> I run my bladder press at about 3 Bar, which is closer to 50 PSI. You
need
> a hydraulic ram or a screw device with a _long_ handle to achieve that
kind
> of pressure over a large platen. A simple lever arrangement won't cut it.
>
> > > if you
> > > have a 10" diameter basket, that's about 78 sq in. Times 30, that's
> > > over 2300 lbs of weight on a one-to-one lever system.
>
> Correct.
>
> > Are your sure about the calculation where you arrive at 2300
> > pounds? Wouldn't I only have to think about the 30 psi and ensure
> > I get that pressure on my round (or square) pressing plate?
>
> Yes, but remember that psi = pounds per square inch. You have to multiply
> the 30 by the number of square inches of plate.
>
> Building something like this from scratch isn't easy or cheap. That's why
I
> suggested renting or buying a press. You could always sell it if you
decide
> winemaking isn't for you.
>
> Tom S
>
>

Don, I saw ,in Tuscany, an ancient press like your sketch that used a
massive oak beam ~25 ft long. But it used a large wooden screw under the
"free" end to regulate the rate of applying pressure. There was a large
capstan like device to turn the screw.

--
Regards,
Rex Franklin
"Don S" > wrote in message
om...
> The problem with making your own press in the manner of the
> basket presses is buying and installing the central metal screw.
> Someone (Joe?) posted a technique for pressing with 3 pails and
> that seems like an idea to consider. I was thinking that a
> lever with weights at the end might be a good as well and
> more in the traditional basket press style. Something like
> this:
>
> |
> |o==============o============================o
> | | |
> | |
> | |
> | / \
> | / \
> | / \
> | | | / _____ \
> | | | / | W | \
> | | | / ----- \
> |===============| -------------
> | o o o |
> | o o |
> | o o o o o|
> |___________________|
> \\
>
>
> Anyone know how much pressure a standard basket press exerts?
>
> Don

>
> Yes, but remember that psi = pounds per square inch. You have to multiply

So the options are to increase the leverage or decrease the
size of the plate (platen?). In order to get the same volume
in the press you could switch from a 24" diameter tube that
is 2' high to a 12" tube 4' high.

Don

Not a good idea. The grapes at the bottom of the 4 ft press will hardly be
affected.

--
Regards,
Rex Franklin
"Don S" > wrote in message
om...
> >
> > Yes, but remember that psi = pounds per square inch. You have to
multiply
>
> So the options are to increase the leverage or decrease the
> size of the plate (platen?). In order to get the same volume
> in the press you could switch from a 24" diameter tube that
> is 2' high to a 12" tube 4' high.
>
> Don

Don S wrote:

> Is the 3:1 ratio set by the distance from the start of the cross
> beam to the down tube and from the down tube to where the weight
> is suspended, B/A in the below:

No, it's like this:

A B C

O----------O-------------------------------O
Hinge Platen Weight
shaft

The distance for the "platen lever" is A-B, and the distance for the
distance for the "weight lever" is A-C. The mechanical advantage would
be A-C divided by A-B. (This is called a 2nd class lever. A seesaw is a
1st class lever.)

> I was considering a single 2x4 for the cross beam but perhaps
> two would be better, something like this when viewed from the top:
>
> |--------------------------------
> hinge | O weight
> |--------------------------------
>
I would use a pair of 2X6's, _on edge_, about 8' long.

Don, I have to agree with Tom and Darwin on this, that it is a lot of
work & expense (& design effort) to make a practical press from scratch.
Over the years, I've built two. While each worked (works!) well, it
was probably more hassle than it was worth. I now have a shiney new
bladder press (although this year's crop was too meager to warrant
getting it dirty :-( )
It's certainly a doable project, but not everyone would want to
undertake it. Someone who's very handy with tools & design can have a
fun time doing it, but but someone who isn't handy might well be
frustrated with the result.

HTH, Mike MTM

"Don S" > wrote in message
om...
> >
> > Yes, but remember that psi = pounds per square inch. You have to
multiply
>
> So the options are to increase the leverage or decrease the
> size of the plate (platen?). In order to get the same volume
> in the press you could switch from a 24" diameter tube that
> is 2' high to a 12" tube 4' high.

You didn't work the numbers on that. Halving the diameter and doubling the
length yields a volume that is _half_ what you started with. Using your
example, you'd have to increase the height to 8' to retain the same volume.

Tom S

The pressure required goes up as the square of the radius. A 12" tube is to
a 24" tube as 36 is to 144, or 4 times the area. To put 30 psi on a 24"
circle takes 12,667 lbs of pressure, whereas you can get the same psi on
your follower with only 3167 lbs if you stick to 12". The 18" diameter takes
7634 lbs of push to get 30 psi. on the follower. This works nice with a
heavy trailer tongue jack, which will give you 8000 lbs of push, and they
are pretty cheap (50 bucks?), and quite durable. You need to weld some
strong brackets to attach it to the cross arm of the press, but thats just a
few bucks.

One benefit of building something like that is if you get into cheese
making, you can use a piece of 12" pvc in place of the basket, with a
perforated board underneath to make a real nice cheese press for big 25 lb
wheels of cheddar or gouda, which age the best. You can't buy that extra
aged, raw milk cheese in the stores, and its perfectly safe after only 3
months age. After a year it is outa site! (Have tasted it and am in process
of making some!)(I had no difficulty trading wine for 2 minute old, warm,
fresh, jersey milk)

"Tom S" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Don S" > wrote in message
> om...
> > >
> > > Yes, but remember that psi = pounds per square inch. You have to
> multiply
> >
> > So the options are to increase the leverage or decrease the
> > size of the plate (platen?). In order to get the same volume
> > in the press you could switch from a 24" diameter tube that
> > is 2' high to a 12" tube 4' high.
>
> You didn't work the numbers on that. Halving the diameter and doubling
the
> length yields a volume that is _half_ what you started with. Using your
> example, you'd have to increase the height to 8' to retain the same
volume.
>
> Tom S
>
>

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 06:34:16 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Don S" > wrote in message
. com...
>> >
>> > Yes, but remember that psi = pounds per square inch. You have to
>multiply
>>
>> So the options are to increase the leverage or decrease the
>> size of the plate (platen?). In order to get the same volume
>> in the press you could switch from a 24" diameter tube that
>> is 2' high to a 12" tube 4' high.
>
>You didn't work the numbers on that. Halving the diameter and doubling the
>length yields a volume that is _half_ what you started with. Using your
>example, you'd have to increase the height to 8' to retain the same volume.

To decrease the serface area by half, you would need a diameter of
just shy of 17".


email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com
please respond in this NG so others
can share your wisdom as well!

>
> No, it's like this:
>
> A B C
>
> O----------O-------------------------------O
> Hinge Platen Weight
> shaft

So if I was to use a 8' 2x4 and put the platen post at
the 2' mark I would have an AB of 2 and an AC of 8'.
The multiplier would then be AC/AB = 8/2 = 4 ?

What's the ratio of movement of point B in relation to
point C - if I move C a distance of 2', how far does B
move?

Also, is 30 psi the desired pressure would 20/15 or some
other number do?

I'm beginning to agree with Tom as well. I'd prefer to
save the $250 Cdn but it's the time that's the killer.

Don

Don S wrote:
>> No, it's like this:
>>
>> A B C
>>
>> O----------O-------------------------------O
>> Hinge Platen Weight
>> shaft
>
>
> So if I was to use a 8' 2x4 and put the platen post at
> the 2' mark I would have an AB of 2 and an AC of 8'.
> The multiplier would then be AC/AB = 8/2 = 4 ?

That's right. your "mechanical advantage" is 4.

> What's the ratio of movement of point B in relation to
> point C - if I move C a distance of 2', how far does B
> move?


The ratio of movement will be the inverse of the mechanical advantage.
In other words, if the force on B is 4 times the force (weight) on C,
then it travel 1/4 as far as C. That's 'cause you don't get something
for nothing in this universe. The basic rule is: Force (B) X Distance
(B) = Force (C) X Distance (C).


> Also, is 30 psi the desired pressure would 20/15 or some
> other number do?

Good question. I never really knew the pressure I was applying with a
screw press, but my bladder press has a pressure relief valve which is
set at 3 ATM, or 45 psi. I think this is what Tom said he runs his up
to. The instructions for mine say to operate at about 30psi, but when I
ran the bladder press at a small commercial winery, we went to about 2.5
ATM, or 38psi. It's also a matter of personal preference, and how hard
you're willing to squeeze the must. Basically, the harder you squeeze,
the more wine you get, but at some point the quality starts to suffer.
Wines can be "overpressed", but the greatest drawback to underpressing
is probably low yield. I think 15psi is unreasonably low, probably 20psi
too. Especially for whites.


Luck, Mike MTM


> I'm beginning to agree with Tom as well. I'd prefer to
> save the $250 Cdn but it's the time that's the killer.
>
> Don

>
> A B C
>
> O----------O-------------------------------O
> Hinge Platen Weight
> shaft
>

So I worked out a test case. A 12" dia basket would work
out to:

pi X d = 3.14 X 12 = 37.68 sq in

at 30 psi we get:

30 X 37.68 = 1130.4 pds

If we get a multiplier of 4 by using an 8'x2"x4" with the platen
at 2':

1130.4/4 = 282.6 pds

Which is doable especially if you plan to add your own weight
by stepping onto the end somehow. If we calculate at 20 psi then
it gets even better:

20 X 37.68 / 4 = 188.4 pds

This is really theoretical at this point, I'm going to keep
my eye open for a used press.

Don

"Don S" > wrote in message
om...
> >
> > A B C
> >
> > O----------O-------------------------------O
> > Hinge Platen Weight
> > shaft
> >
>
> So I worked out a test case. A 12" dia basket would work
> out to:
>
> pi X d = 3.14 X 12 = 37.68 sq in

Wups! Area = (radius)² x 3.14 = 36 x 3.14 = 113 sq in
(You calculated the circumference.)

> at 30 psi we get:
>
> 30 X 37.68 = 1130.4 pds

Actually, it's 113 x 30 = 3390 lbs

> If we get a multiplier of 4 by using an 8'x2"x4" with the platen
> at 2':
>
> 1130.4/4 = 282.6 pds

No, it's 847 lbs

> Which is doable especially if you plan to add your own weight
> by stepping onto the end somehow. If we calculate at 20 psi then
> it gets even better:
>
> 20 X 37.68 / 4 = 188.4 pds

No, it's still 565 lbs. You'd still need whatever you weigh plus ~400
pounds.

> I'm going to keep
> my eye open for a used press.

That's the right idea IMO. BTW, a little bigger than you think you need is
better. Plan ahead.

Tom S

Rex Franklin wrote:

> Don, I saw ,in Tuscany, an ancient press like your sketch that used a
> massive oak beam ~25 ft long. But it used a large wooden screw under the
> "free" end to regulate the rate of applying pressure. There was a large
> capstan like device to turn the screw.

I too have seen one like you describe, it was from Austria... the tour
guide said that men or oxen would turn the screw to apply pressure.

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

The one in Tuscany was different. The weight of the beam provided the
pressure. The capstan screw lowered the beam and thus controlled the
pressure

--
Regards,
Rex Franklin
"Charles H" > wrote in message
...
> Rex Franklin wrote:
>
> > Don, I saw ,in Tuscany, an ancient press like your sketch that used a
> > massive oak beam ~25 ft long. But it used a large wooden screw under the
> > "free" end to regulate the rate of applying pressure. There was a large
> > capstan like device to turn the screw.
>
> I too have seen one like you describe, it was from Austria... the tour
> guide said that men or oxen would turn the screw to apply pressure.
>
> --
> charles
>
> "Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
> forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
> - W.C. Fields

> Wups! Area = (radius)² x 3.14 = 36 x 3.14 = 113 sq in
> (You calculated the circumference.)

Silly me. I should have caught that because the units
wouldn't have come out in square inches, didn't do as
I was taught.... don't tell Mrs. Gilljie.

> Actually, it's 113 x 30 = 3390 lbs
> No, it's 847 lbs
> No, it's still 565 lbs. You'd still need whatever you weigh plus ~400
> pounds.

Correct on all accounts.

One thing bothers me though, on the one had we talk about hand
squeezing grapes or using a 3 pail system with one pail being
filled with 70 pds of water, but when it comes to a press nothing
less than a billion pounds per square inch will do? Seems on the
one hand the good enough will do but on the other it has to be
perfect??

Don

Another idea dawned on me while considering that the problem
in the lever style is the weight on the end. Instead of the
lever, I could use a car jack and the weight of my house.

Since I will be working in my basement, I could use a sissor
type jack within a two piece pillar above the platen/press:


| Floor Joist |
----------------------
| |
| | 4x4 brace against joist
| |
-----
X---- Sissor Type Car Jack
-----
| |
| | 4x4 brace
| |
| |
| | | |
| | | | Press Basket
|-----------|
| o o o |
| o o |
| o o o |
\---------------/
\\


As long as the sissor jack was firmly anchored to both 4x4s
so it wouldn't fold it should be safe. Perhaps a bit awkward
to fit altogether but simpler and cheaper, hmmm...

Or... perhaps one of those poles that are used to shore up
basements. Theie name escapes me but they come in different
sizes and have 4" steel plates on either end. They have the
required coarse threaded screw in them and are fairly low
priced ~$20 or so if I remember correctly.

Don

"Don S" > wrote in message
om...
> One thing bothers me though, on the one had we talk about hand
> squeezing grapes or using a 3 pail system with one pail being
> filled with 70 pds of water, but when it comes to a press nothing
> less than a billion pounds per square inch will do? Seems on the
> one hand the good enough will do but on the other it has to be
> perfect??

It all comes down to what losses you are willing to tolerate and how much
manual labor you are willing to invest. As I said, for a small batch, you
could do the entire lot by hand.

Tom S

Don,

There's many a house "in the old neighborhood" that has just such an
arrangement in the cellar. It works perfectly well, is simple and cheap
to boot.

Consider using a hydraulic jack rather than a scissor jack. With a
scissor jack you apply force in a circular manner, across your wobbly
braces, but a little pump hydraulic jack lets you push up & down along
the braces. It should be a lot easier & safer.

Also, consider using a board & bungee straps to hold the jack up toward
the joist. I would anchor the upper brace to the joist as well.

HTH, Mike MTM

Don S wrote:

> Another idea dawned on me while considering that the problem
> in the lever style is the weight on the end. Instead of the
> lever, I could use a car jack and the weight of my house.
>
> Since I will be working in my basement, I could use a sissor
> type jack within a two piece pillar above the platen/press:
>
>
> | Floor Joist |
> ----------------------
> | |
> | | 4x4 brace against joist
> | |
> -----
> X---- Sissor Type Car Jack
> -----
> | |
> | | 4x4 brace
> | |
> | |
> | | | |
> | | | | Press Basket
> |-----------|
> | o o o |
> | o o |
> | o o o |
> \---------------/
> \\
>
>
> As long as the sissor jack was firmly anchored to both 4x4s
> so it wouldn't fold it should be safe. Perhaps a bit awkward
> to fit altogether but simpler and cheaper, hmmm...
>
> Or... perhaps one of those poles that are used to shore up
> basements. Theie name escapes me but they come in different
> sizes and have 4" steel plates on either end. They have the
> required coarse threaded screw in them and are fairly low
> priced ~$20 or so if I remember correctly.
>
> Don

<snip>

> Consider using a hydraulic jack rather than a scissor jack.

<snip>

For pictures of a press that uses a car jack go to:
http://www.geocities.com/mipeman/photos.html

Some very nice photos of other processes here as well. HTH

> For pictures of a press that uses a car jack go to:
> http://www.geocities.com/mipeman/photos.html

Nice setup. I think it would make more sense to have the
jack underneath and have a solid 4x4 attached directly
to the platen. That setup has just got to be dirt simple.
A drilled square basket made from 12" or larger boards,
the juice catcher, the hydraulic jack and the platen/pillar
setup. I just checked the price at an online auto parts
place and a 2 ton hydraulic jack is $20 Cdn.

Trouble is that a hydraulic jack doesn't have anywhere
near the range of motion of a sissor jack. If placed
underneath the sissor jack wouldn't have a wobble
problem either.

I'm going to consider this for next fall.

Don

There are other hydraulic jacks out there with longer motion.
I saw on e-bay the other day some 8 ton jacks with 18.5 in
range.
Bill



(Don S) wrote in message . com>...
> > For pictures of a press that uses a car jack go to:
> > http://www.geocities.com/mipeman/photos.html
>
> Nice setup. I think it would make more sense to have the
> jack underneath and have a solid 4x4 attached directly
> to the platen. That setup has just got to be dirt simple.
> A drilled square basket made from 12" or larger boards,
> the juice catcher, the hydraulic jack and the platen/pillar
> setup. I just checked the price at an online auto parts
> place and a 2 ton hydraulic jack is $20 Cdn.
>
> Trouble is that a hydraulic jack doesn't have anywhere
> near the range of motion of a sissor jack. If placed
> underneath the sissor jack wouldn't have a wobble
> problem either.
>
> I'm going to consider this for next fall.
>
> Don

"Don S" > wrote in message
om...

> > For pictures of a press that uses a car jack go to:
> > http://www.geocities.com/mipeman/photos.html

<snipp>

> Nice setup. I think it would make more sense to have the
> jack underneath and have a solid 4x4 attached directly
> to the platen. That setup has just got to be dirt simple.

<snip>

> Don

It's a little hard to see but the jack _is_ underneath. If you look
closely you can see the jack handle protruding in the second and
third photos. HTH

Thanks to everyone that gave me feedback. I think I have
what can be a working design. Now I just need the time to
build it. Like they say, work is the curse of the drinking
class.

Thanks again,
Don