Back in the end of –92 I bought several large size red wine kits (18).
Over the past holidays my friends and I did a scored tasting.

The tasting result went like this. They all except for one have some
kind of cooked flavor. The one was Brew Kings Pinot Noir. Not to get
me wrong, the wine has no nose, no finesse whatsoever. Basically taste
as good as any $9 jug wine. But the finish was clean. So I wonder if
anyone else find the same result?

I visited and tasted 7 home wine making affairs the last year and was
part of 2 "manufactures tasting". Each time taking special note to any
kit wine that I came across. I am no Parker by a long shot. But my
verdict is simple, cooked juice is cooked wine. They all have an
obnoxious cooked flavor.

These claim that a juice can even reach the most elementary of a
balance wine and be classified, as a "$20" wine is a pure pipe dream.
Either these people have never been exposed to a "big" wine. Or the
alcohol is simply clouding their judgments. A big wine does not mean
big bucks. Just find yourself a bottle of the Australian 2001 Shiraz
from Wynns Coonawarra Estate ($9.95 here). Or some of the Spanish
wines that reach our shores for the same price.

So what do you do with these kit wines? I have begun serving them at
various parties and guess what, everybody just loves them….

SG Brix

> Back in the end of ?92 I bought several large size red wine kits (18).
> Over the past holidays my friends and I did a scored tasting.

I didn't think a kit was meant to be aged for 14 years. I mean
everyone has this view that they're going to put bottles away for
20 or 40 years and have the equal of Chateaux bottled wines.
Even alot of winery bottled stuff, here and from Europe or anywhere
else, wouldn't make it that long.

There have been more than a few postings here of people wanting
to make wine in the year their children are born for their wedding.
Usually the replies are a dose of reality.

I would guess most kit wines have a life time of 4-8 years max.
At least that is my opinion based on what I've read.

Don

"sgbrix" > wrote in message
om...

<snip>

> I visited and tasted 7 home wine making affairs the last year and was
> part of 2 "manufactures tasting". Each time taking special note to any
> kit wine that I came across. I am no Parker by a long shot. But my
> verdict is simple, cooked juice is cooked wine. They all have an
> obnoxious cooked flavor.

<snip>

> So what do you do with these kit wines? I have begun serving them at
> various parties and guess what, everybody just loves them..
>
> SG Brix

Yup - Some folks actually_prefer_that "...obnoxious cooked flavor."
Especially in some "country" wines. (ie Strawberry)

I concur with Don. I do not believe most kit wines should be aged beyond 2
years. They are designed for quick gratification. If you are going to age
for ages, use fresh fruit. Also, I think the kits have improved markedly
since 92. But all that said, I agree with Brix in that I am still not
impressed by any of the red kits I have tasted. I make whites from kits and
they are just fine but for red, I make it from scratch. But I will try a
red kit every other year or so just to see how they come out. White kits
seem to come out as good as I can make from scratch. Reds do not.

Ray

"Don S" > wrote in message
om...
> > Back in the end of ?92 I bought several large size red wine kits (18).
> > Over the past holidays my friends and I did a scored tasting.
>
> I didn't think a kit was meant to be aged for 14 years. I mean
> everyone has this view that they're going to put bottles away for
> 20 or 40 years and have the equal of Chateaux bottled wines.
> Even alot of winery bottled stuff, here and from Europe or anywhere
> else, wouldn't make it that long.
>
> There have been more than a few postings here of people wanting
> to make wine in the year their children are born for their wedding.
> Usually the replies are a dose of reality.
>
> I would guess most kit wines have a life time of 4-8 years max.
> At least that is my opinion based on what I've read.
>
> Don

>The tasting result went like this. They all except for one have some kind of
cooked flavor. The one was Brew Kings Pinot Noir. Not to get me wrong, the wine
has no nose, no finesse whatsoever. Basically taste as good as any $9 jug wine.
But the finish was clean. So I wonder if>anyone else find the same result?<<

I have made a bunch of red kits so far, BK OV Zin, Australian Shiraz, two
Pinot's, and four limited edition reds. I have noticed the taste that you
mention in some kits but not others. I noticed it in the Shiraz, but not the
Pinot Noir or the 2 limited edition kits from last year. The OV Zin needs alot
more time... The whites don't seem to have this taste, and in fact think the
italian Pinot kit is among the best Pinot I have tasted. I think personally
they are better than jug wines, but they are not a $20 bottle of wine that's
for sure.

You're right Brix, people do usually love them at parties though!, so for $3
per bottle, they are a good wine that does improve with a years aging.

I haven't tried the Wynns Coonawarra, but will make it a point to do so. I
tried a McManis Cabernet I think from 2001, and it was impressive... try it, I
don't think you'd be disappointed!
Best,
PB

I'm guessing it's a typo, and he really meant '02...

"Ray" > wrote in message .com>...
> I concur with Don. I do not believe most kit wines should be aged beyond 2
> years. They are designed for quick gratification. If you are going to age
> for ages, use fresh fruit. Also, I think the kits have improved markedly
> since 92. But all that said, I agree with Brix in that I am still not
> impressed by any of the red kits I have tasted. I make whites from kits and
> they are just fine but for red, I make it from scratch. But I will try a
> red kit every other year or so just to see how they come out. White kits
> seem to come out as good as I can make from scratch. Reds do not.
>
> Ray
>
> "Don S" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > Back in the end of ?92 I bought several large size red wine kits (18).
> > > Over the past holidays my friends and I did a scored tasting.
> >
> > I didn't think a kit was meant to be aged for 14 years. I mean
> > everyone has this view that they're going to put bottles away for
> > 20 or 40 years and have the equal of Chateaux bottled wines.
> > Even alot of winery bottled stuff, here and from Europe or anywhere
> > else, wouldn't make it that long.
> >
> > There have been more than a few postings here of people wanting
> > to make wine in the year their children are born for their wedding.
> > Usually the replies are a dose of reality.
> >
> > I would guess most kit wines have a life time of 4-8 years max.
> > At least that is my opinion based on what I've read.
> >
> > Don

SG,

I agree 100%. Kit reds, in my experience, always have that cooked,
almost caramelized taste. I believe it comes from something called
hydroxymethylfurfural, which is formed when they heat the juice in the
concentration & color setting process. Perhaps they don't heat the
whites as much. Kit whites can be quite nice, and I'll still make one
occasionally.

Funny that you ask what one does with these wines. "A fellow I know"
is recycling the last of his kit red wine into brandy at this very
moment. I, er, "he" hopes to try his hand at a port type wine this year.

I also agree with the sentiment that a lot of people like these wines
nonetheless. I guess that a basically well made and balanced wine, even
with a taste that some perceive as a flaw, can outclass a lot of the
plonk of the market. It amazes me when one of my wines, one I'm not too
proud of, is so well received by others, who may not even know it's
homemade (or that I'm lurking nearby & watching). My reaction is "What
kind of junk do these people buy?" I think I'd be too embarrassed to
bottle some of the stuff that I find in the stores, and perhaps that's
why the kits, even reds, are enjoyed by so many; that the competition
may be even worse.

Sorry for the ramble.

Luck, Mike MTM

Have any of you tried any of the House of Beaverdale Kits the Rioja is
very good!!

Please Take a moment to visit www.brucellar.co.uk


On 4 Feb 2004 21:04:39 -0800, (sgbrix) wrote:

>Back in the end of –92 I bought several large size red wine kits (18).
>Over the past holidays my friends and I did a scored tasting.
>
>The tasting result went like this. They all except for one have some
>kind of cooked flavor. The one was Brew Kings Pinot Noir. Not to get
>me wrong, the wine has no nose, no finesse whatsoever. Basically taste
>as good as any $9 jug wine. But the finish was clean. So I wonder if
>anyone else find the same result?
>
>I visited and tasted 7 home wine making affairs the last year and was
>part of 2 "manufactures tasting". Each time taking special note to any
>kit wine that I came across. I am no Parker by a long shot. But my
>verdict is simple, cooked juice is cooked wine. They all have an
>obnoxious cooked flavor.
>
>These claim that a juice can even reach the most elementary of a
>balance wine and be classified, as a "$20" wine is a pure pipe dream.
>Either these people have never been exposed to a "big" wine. Or the
>alcohol is simply clouding their judgments. A big wine does not mean
>big bucks. Just find yourself a bottle of the Australian 2001 Shiraz
>from Wynns Coonawarra Estate ($9.95 here). Or some of the Spanish
>wines that reach our shores for the same price.
>
>So what do you do with these kit wines? I have begun serving them at
>various parties and guess what, everybody just loves them….
>
>SG Brix

(Don S) wrote in message . com>...
> > Back in the end of ?92 I bought several large size red wine kits (18).
> > Over the past holidays my friends and I did a scored tasting.
>
> I didn't think a kit was meant to be aged for 14 years. I mean

---snip

Ok, Ok, so it was to be -02. It is not the effect of the alcohol but
the age that sometimes make me writing the date back from the 1900 on
checks and other papers.

>In ref: Yup - Some folks actually_prefer_that "...obnoxious cooked
flavor."
Especially in some "country" wines. (ie Strawberry)

The problem I have with country wines in general is not that it has
these cooked flavors, but that I have never really been able to make
or tasted a wine in any comparison of a fruity or full-bodied wine
like that of a wine made from grapes. I did 4 different strawberry
wines the last year that is slowly coming along. If you compare the
fruits, one was from wild strawberry that had a beautiful aroma and
succulent taste when picked, but has lost all that in the wine
generally taste the same as the store bought berries. One was made
from last years, that is –03 crops here in Florida that was quite
lousy. Commercial berries at the markets here had no real taste last
year.

Personally I think is simply the added sugar that kill out these
nuances for any country wine and make them all stale compared with
"real" wine. I have tried both way, fruit-water-sugar, and just
fruit-sugar. In either case there have not been that much difference.

I'll go on with these country wines just for the fun of it. Still
waiting for that magical moment that one would pull the cork from a
"huge" fruit wine that will throw a bouquet so wild that one would go
totally nuts about it.

Just show me the way,

SG Brix

"sgbrix" > wrote in message
om...

<snip>

> >In ref: Yup - Some folks actually_prefer_that "...obnoxious cooked
> flavor."
> Especially in some "country" wines. (ie Strawberry)
>
> The problem I have with country wines in general is not that it has
> these cooked flavors, but that I have never really been able to make
> or tasted a wine in any comparison of a fruity or full-bodied wine
> like that of a wine made from grapes. I did 4 different strawberry
> wines the last year that is slowly coming along. If you compare the
> fruits, one was from wild strawberry that had a beautiful aroma and
> succulent taste when picked, but has lost all that in the wine
> generally taste the same as the store bought berries. One was made
> from last years, that is -03 crops here in Florida that was quite
> lousy. Commercial berries at the markets here had no real taste last
> year.
>
> Personally I think is simply the added sugar that kill out these
> nuances for any country wine and make them all stale compared with
> "real" wine. I have tried both way, fruit-water-sugar, and just
> fruit-sugar. In either case there have not been that much difference.
>
> I'll go on with these country wines just for the fun of it. Still
> waiting for that magical moment that one would pull the cork from a
> "huge" fruit wine that will throw a bouquet so wild that one would go
> totally nuts about it.
>
> Just show me the way,
>
> SG Brix

Wines don't taste like the fruit they are made from. They taste like
....well...like wine. It's all a matter of personal preference. Some folks
don't like broccoli, so they simply don't put it on their plates !! If
you don't like country wines, stop making them. If you don't like
red kit wines, stop buying them. Life is too short.

Most folks find a few wines that they really like and just concentrate
on making those the very best way they know how. Some also do
small little experimental batches in the hopes of finding something
else they will like to add to their list of favorites. Seems to me the
best way to go.

If you just want fruit juice with alcohol in it, buy a bottle of vodka and
make mixed drinks. Always more than one way to skin a cat !! ;o)

> The problem I have with country wines in general is not that it has
> these cooked flavors, but that I have never really been able to make
> or tasted a wine in any comparison of a fruity or full-bodied wine
> like that of a wine made from grapes.

Well this is an interesting topic of much debate (see "Fruit wines -
emulating the BIG grape styles" thread begun 2000/12/11 for example).
I would say it is more likely to be achieved by using 100% fruit juice
and certain extraction techniques.

> fruits, one was from wild strawberry that had a beautiful aroma and
> succulent taste when picked, but has lost all that in the wine
> generally taste the same as the store bought berries. One was made

Are you saying it has lost all that after a year? If so, I'd say of
course: I'd wouldn't expect many strawberry wines to show as well
beyond a year's ageing. Though, of course, it depends on the style.

> Commercial berries at the markets here had no real taste last year.

Fruit quality is the biggest issue.

> Personally I think is simply the added sugar that kill out these
> nuances for any country wine and make them all stale compared with
> "real" wine.

That's interesting. Most people on this ng seem to believe that some
r.s. *brings out the fruit more*! I'd incline to disagree with the
above statement (some r.s. causes a more stale aroma).

Ben

MikeMTM > wrote in message >...
> SG,
>
> I agree 100%. Kit reds, in my experience, always have that cooked,
> almost caramelized taste. I believe it comes from something called
> hydroxymethylfurfural, which is formed when they heat the juice in the
> concentration & color setting process.

---snip

For the reds yes, but as someone pointed out it is not in the white
wines, although there is other issues.

For those that read The Winemaker Magazine issue Vol 7 No1.
International Wine Competition, I find it still strange how kit wines
can be judge with "real" wines. I did both Wine Art Gold Cabernet &
Brew Kings International French Cabernet, (both was mentioned in the
gold selection of Cabernet Sauvignon), and they, may we now call it
the hydroxymethylfurfural taste was in both of my wines.

If I understand it right Daniel Pambianchi was one of the judges for
this group, documenting a corked wine to Chris Colby. Did they ok this
hydroxymethylfurfural taste as a handicap for any kit wine so as not
excluding them all? Or is it possible to loose this flavor somehow
like what happened to my Pinot Noir? I really like to know.

SG Brix

"frederick ploegman" > wrote in message >...
> "sgbrix" > wrote in message
> om...
---snip
>
> Wines don't taste like the fruit they are made from. They taste like
> ...well...like wine. It's all a matter of personal preference.

---snip
I really can't concur with that. All fruit wines I ever made have at
least had some hint of the original fruit flavor. Now vegetable wines
might be another story.

I used to make several different fruit wines and have begun now for
over a year to make them again. I usually do the same as most
commercial fruit winery does, bump the flavor after the last racking
and let this settle out. But this only gives you a better fruitier
taste, no bouquet.

SG Brix

"sgbrix" > wrote in message
m...
>
> For those that read The Winemaker Magazine issue Vol 7 No1.
> International Wine Competition, I find it still strange how kit wines
> can be judge with "real" wines. I did both Wine Art Gold Cabernet &
> Brew Kings International French Cabernet, (both was mentioned in the
> gold selection of Cabernet Sauvignon), and they, may we now call it
> the hydroxymethylfurfural taste was in both of my wines.

In last year's AWC competitions, a Wine Art (of all things) kit took gold
medals in the Red Bordeaux class at both the Ontario provincials and the
nationals (the only wine to be awarded a gold at the nationals). Clearly kit
wines can compete at the amateur level against wines made from grapes. I
haven't tasted this wine, I don't know if it has the "kit wine" taste that I
seem to find in every kit red I taste. I am starting to suspect that some
people either don't taste this component, or simply don't find it as
offensive as I do. To my tastes, it is a flaw. However, I don't think
amateur judges will ever be taught to recognize it as such. The powerful kit
wine lobby would be all over any such attempts to discriminate against their
wines. ;-)

Brian

The kit wines I make are mostly reds -- cos I like red wine. But the reason
I have gone on upward to the higher priced kits is to seek an increase in
vinousity (?) and a reduction in the cooked flavour. But it still exists and
it seems from reading this string that it is unavoidable. It is the same
reason that I don't cook my blackberries or elderberries ( or indeed any of
my fruits for wine ) I learned that lesson 30 years ago.

BUT occasionally something different happens. I mentioned on another topic
the other day that I had made a "tempranillo" wine from a SolVino kit -- a
cheaper end of the range at £22 for a 5 gall imp kit ( cf Selection reds
@£52.50). It came in two large cans and I it made as a summer
slurping/cooking wine, starting in September 2002. It actually got a bit
forgotten in its bulk aging and I didn't bottle it until Mid September
2003. I don't even recollect anything about it at bottling time. anyway come
last Christmas I opened a bottle to aid me and the pot, in making some
casseroley thingy or other. anyway I immediately decided to put it on my
"reserve" shelves. It is every bit as good as some of my Selection reds at
less than half the price.
I am usually very sensitive the the red kit wine taste but honestly it was
barely perceptible -- if at all. I opened a bottle about half an hour ago
and I am tasting it right now. Yes there is a smidgin of the old cooked wine
taste but I have to look hard for it. But there is a good whack of tannin in
the mouth -- which I favour -- and perhaps if more kit wines had a bit more
bite and harshness to them it might ameliorate the cooked wine flavour.
Now I am not being critical but I remember some 20 plus years ago being
offered a Californian red for the first time when dining with my 2 schoolboy
sons. There was a bit of a promotion Would it be a "Paul Masson" wine? --
something like that. But I immediately commented that it was too smooth and
innocuous on my palate. Here's where I am not being critical. Is it possible
that the "US American" taste in red wines tends towards reduced tannin
levels. I am certainly aware that most of the kit wines lack ( for my
tastes) that slightly mouth puckering sensation that I associate with a good
tannin "belt"
I am probably talking rubbish as usual but I certainly do add a extra bit of
tannin in one or two of the BK selection reds


--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!


"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...

<snip><snip>
>

"Pinky" > wrote in message >...
> The kit wines I make are mostly reds -- cos I like red wine. But the reason
> I have gone on upward to the higher priced kits is to seek an increase in
> vinousity (?) and a reduction in the cooked flavour.

---snip

I just want to point out that Daniel Pambianchi was not involved in
the
competition organization, only with the judging, he does state in
reference to HMF, "It all depends on how the kit was processed and the
detection threshold of the taster."

I'm not out to put a curse on any kit wine, far from it. It think it
is great that we finally have found an industry that is willing to
make the investments and energy into trying to create a grape juice
that home winemakers can use and play with. As they develop this game,
the better they will become and this will benefit us all.

I still do think that they (kit wines) should be separated from "real"
wine in any competition. So that we can one day if possible create a
kit wine that really is as good or better than a good real wine. I
mean isn't that the real goal?

SG Brix