Lets say you are not "entirely" sure that what you have is H2S (even
though you are pretty sure), so you want to add some copper sulfate.
Can copper sulfate pull out "good" aromas unintentionally?

Thanks!

Joe

"Joe Giller" > wrote in message
...
> Lets say you are not "entirely" sure that what you have is H2S (even
> though you are pretty sure), so you want to add some copper sulfate.
> Can copper sulfate pull out "good" aromas unintentionally?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joe

Copper will not pull out good aromas Joe, but it can make wine more
prone to oxidation.

Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

> > Lets say you are not "entirely" sure that what you have is H2S (even
> > though you are pretty sure), so you want to add some copper sulfate.
> > Can copper sulfate pull out "good" aromas unintentionally?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Joe
>
> Copper will not pull out good aromas Joe, but it can make wine more
> prone to oxidation.
>
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA


The danger with oxidation mainly occurs with residual copper, and if
proper sulfite levels are maintained during the treatment, the danger
can be avoided altogether. At proper dosage, there is little to no
residual copper in the wine.

Like all fining agents, copper sulfate additions should be determined
by trials, so the minimum dosage is used to create the desired effect.
Trials will also help determine if the problem is indeed H2S (or some
other reduced sulfur compound).

I have noticed before a temporary muting of positive wine qualities
during trials. I don't know the vehicles involved, but the wine has
always recovered over time.

clyde
Steelville, Missouri, USofA
http://www.PeacefulBend.com
http://www.vinic.com

Clyde, or anyone else. I am interested it trying this on a batch of wine as
well. I have never use copper sulfate before. Could you suggest a
procedure for running trials and what to look for to get the right amount?

Ray

"Clyde Gill" > wrote in message
om...
> > > Lets say you are not "entirely" sure that what you have is H2S (even
> > > though you are pretty sure), so you want to add some copper sulfate.
> > > Can copper sulfate pull out "good" aromas unintentionally?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Joe
> >
> > Copper will not pull out good aromas Joe, but it can make wine more
> > prone to oxidation.
> >
> > Lum
> > Del Mar, California, USA
>
>
> The danger with oxidation mainly occurs with residual copper, and if
> proper sulfite levels are maintained during the treatment, the danger
> can be avoided altogether. At proper dosage, there is little to no
> residual copper in the wine.
>
> Like all fining agents, copper sulfate additions should be determined
> by trials, so the minimum dosage is used to create the desired effect.
> Trials will also help determine if the problem is indeed H2S (or some
> other reduced sulfur compound).
>
> I have noticed before a temporary muting of positive wine qualities
> during trials. I don't know the vehicles involved, but the wine has
> always recovered over time.
>
> clyde
> Steelville, Missouri, USofA
> http://www.PeacefulBend.com
> http://www.vinic.com

0.1 ppm as Cu = 0.15 ml of 1% CuSO4 per Gallon of wine (cellar
addition)
= 0.1 ml of 0.05% CuSO4 per 120 ml of wine (lab
trials)

Legal limit of residual Cu here in the US for commercial wine is 0.5
ppm.
Copper haze can form in whites with as low as 0.4 ppm residual Cu.


H2S (and other sulfides) will fatique the nose very quickly, so I
always setup a trial doing several samples (0.4 - 0.1 ppm) and check
from the largest dosage to the smallest.

Like most fining trials, results will be slightly off, usually to the
lesser side. One possible cause for this is that the dilution rate is
dramatically different from actual cellar procedures, but human error
in measuring small quantities probably has a larger role. I tend to
bump my results up by at least 0.05 ppm. In other words, if trials
dictate an addition of 0.3 ml of 1% CuSoO4 per Gallon, I would
probably add 0.35 ml.

As Lum already pointed out, presence of CuSO4 tends to hasten
oxidation, so SO2 levels need to be kept at appropriate levels while
treating the wine.

Also, almost all finings will reduce free SO2 levels to some degree,
so monitoring levels before and after becomes very important.






>
> clyde
> Steelville, Missouri, USofA
> http://www.PeacefulBend.com
> http://www.vinic.com

Hello All,

BASF has a product called Divergan HM that removed heavy metals from wine
and beer. Has anyone used this product after CuSO4 treatment?? Also, does
anyone have a source to buy??

CHEERS TO ALL!!!

Aaron

"Clyde Gill" > wrote in message
om...
> 0.1 ppm as Cu = 0.15 ml of 1% CuSO4 per Gallon of wine (cellar
> addition)
> = 0.1 ml of 0.05% CuSO4 per 120 ml of wine (lab
> trials)
>
> Legal limit of residual Cu here in the US for commercial wine is 0.5
> ppm.
> Copper haze can form in whites with as low as 0.4 ppm residual Cu.
>
>
> H2S (and other sulfides) will fatique the nose very quickly, so I
> always setup a trial doing several samples (0.4 - 0.1 ppm) and check
> from the largest dosage to the smallest.
>
> Like most fining trials, results will be slightly off, usually to the
> lesser side. One possible cause for this is that the dilution rate is
> dramatically different from actual cellar procedures, but human error
> in measuring small quantities probably has a larger role. I tend to
> bump my results up by at least 0.05 ppm. In other words, if trials
> dictate an addition of 0.3 ml of 1% CuSoO4 per Gallon, I would
> probably add 0.35 ml.
>
> As Lum already pointed out, presence of CuSO4 tends to hasten
> oxidation, so SO2 levels need to be kept at appropriate levels while
> treating the wine.
>
> Also, almost all finings will reduce free SO2 levels to some degree,
> so monitoring levels before and after becomes very important.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > clyde
> > Steelville, Missouri, USofA
> > http://www.PeacefulBend.com
> > http://www.vinic.com

"Lum" > wrote in message
...
> Copper will not pull out good aromas Joe, but it can make wine more
> prone to oxidation.
I have always noticed that copper does seem to deaden the nose, and contrary
to other posters, the freshness doesn't come back. This is quite possibly
due to oxidation of volatiles by the copper. However, as H2S also deadens
fruit characters, it is a question of balancing one against the other - just
like all winemaking practices!

> > Copper will not pull out good aromas Joe, but it can make wine more
> > prone to oxidation.
> I have always noticed that copper does seem to deaden the nose, and contrary
> to other posters, the freshness doesn't come back. This is quite possibly
> due to oxidation of volatiles by the copper. However, as H2S also deadens
> fruit characters, it is a question of balancing one against the other - just
> like all winemaking practices!

Help me understand this Andrew. Are you saying that you have a wine
that has H2S aroma with some nice freshness in the background and then
after copper fining it looses some of that freshness and then never
recovers??

You must have quite the distinguishing palate!



clyde
Steelville, Missouri, USofA
http://www.PeacefulBend.com
http://www.vinic.com

Aaron Puhala ) wrote:
>Hello All,

>BASF has a product called Divergan HM that removed heavy metals from wine
>and beer. Has anyone used this product after CuSO4 treatment?? Also, does
>anyone have a source to buy??

>CHEERS TO ALL!!!

>Aaron


No, but I've used rehydrated yeast (30g/HL) to take out residual
copper, and it's worked really well. I've taken out large (ahem,
ahem) amounts of copper, and haven't had a problem with residual
"yeastiness."

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

"Clyde Gill" > wrote in message
om...
> > > Copper will not pull out good aromas Joe, but it can make wine more
> > > prone to oxidation.
> > I have always noticed that copper does seem to deaden the nose, and
contrary
> > to other posters, the freshness doesn't come back. This is quite
possibly
> > due to oxidation of volatiles by the copper. However, as H2S also
deadens
> > fruit characters, it is a question of balancing one against the other -
just
> > like all winemaking practices!
>
> Help me understand this Andrew. Are you saying that you have a wine
> that has H2S aroma with some nice freshness in the background and then
> after copper fining it looses some of that freshness and then never
> recovers??
>
> You must have quite the distinguishing palate!
No, I really meant it suppresses fruit characters! But I guess I meant that
by the copper "deadening" the nose, what it did was suppress the fresh
characters that come from the fruit. Did I weasel out successfully?

"Andrew L Drumm" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Clyde Gill" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > > Copper will not pull out good aromas Joe, but it can make wine more
> > > > prone to oxidation.
> > > I have always noticed that copper does seem to deaden the nose, and
> contrary
> > > to other posters, the freshness doesn't come back. This is quite
> possibly
> > > due to oxidation of volatiles by the copper. However, as H2S also
> deadens
> > > fruit characters, it is a question of balancing one against the
other -
> just
> > > like all winemaking practices!
> >
> > Help me understand this Andrew. Are you saying that you have a wine
> > that has H2S aroma with some nice freshness in the background and then
> > after copper fining it looses some of that freshness and then never
> > recovers??
> >
> > You must have quite the distinguishing palate!

> No, I really meant it suppresses fruit characters! But I guess I meant
that
> by the copper "deadening" the nose, what it did was suppress the fresh
> characters that come from the fruit. Did I weasel out successfully?

You may be right about "suppresses fruit characters" Andrew. I don't use
copper unless the stench is pretty bad, and I can't detect the underlying
fruit character.

Yes. You are a successful weaseler outer.

I've been reading everyone's comments about the use of CuSO4. Last year, I had
2 carboys of the same batch of smelly zinfandel. In one batch, I carefully
measured the appropriate dose of copper sulfate. In the other batch, I took a
sheet of copper foil (the kind sold in the craft stores). I cut it into 1 inch
wide strips, tied them together, and then swished them in the wine for a while.


Both methods seemed to effectively take out the H2S. While I have no idea how
much residual copper was left in the wine with the second method, it "seemed"
safe.

Has anyone else used simple copper? I've read about swishing in copper wire,
or even dropping in a few pennies.

Lee