Hi Folks,

All this duscussion of PA has inspired me to ask, what calculation
do you all use for sugar additions, esp. to large volumes? That is,
if you know your initial volume of must, you know what what Brix you
want to be at, and you know your starting Brix, how do you calculate
how much sugar to add?

I know that 10g/L will raise the sugar by 1%, but that doesn't take
into account volume changes caused by the addition itself.

Thanks for any help.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

Here's the procedure (an example you can follow) that I posted and
submitted to the original FAQ a few years back...

YOU HAVE: 18.93 L (5 US gal) @ SG 1.057 (say 146 g/L) = 2,764 g sugar
YOU WANT: 19.93 L @ SG 1.095 (say 250 g/L) = 4,733 g sugar
---------
difference 1,969 g
1lb sugar (454 g) takes up 0.29 L of volume, therefore
1,969 g x 0.29 L = 1.26 L volume.
Good luck - Giovanni


David C Breeden wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> All this duscussion of PA has inspired me to ask, what calculation
> do you all use for sugar additions, esp. to large volumes? That is,
> if you know your initial volume of must, you know what what Brix you
> want to be at, and you know your starting Brix, how do you calculate
> how much sugar to add?
>
> I know that 10g/L will raise the sugar by 1%, but that doesn't take
> into account volume changes caused by the addition itself.
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Dave
> ************************************************** **************************
> Dave Breeden

1.34 oz of sugar will raise your brix one point.

OG 15
_TG 21_
06
raise brix by 6 points....1.34 X 06 X volume of must=how much sugar to add
in ounces..Divide the answer by 16 to get pounds..divide by 8 to get cups.

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Folks,
>
> All this duscussion of PA has inspired me to ask, what calculation
> do you all use for sugar additions, esp. to large volumes? That is,
> if you know your initial volume of must, you know what what Brix you
> want to be at, and you know your starting Brix, how do you calculate
> how much sugar to add?
>
> I know that 10g/L will raise the sugar by 1%, but that doesn't take
> into account volume changes caused by the addition itself.
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Dave
>
************************************************** **************************
> Dave Breeden

D. Evans ) wrote:
>1.34 oz of sugar will raise your brix one point.

> OG 15
>_TG 21_
> 06
>raise brix by 6 points....1.34 X 06 X volume of must=how much sugar to add
>in ounces..Divide the answer by 16 to get pounds..divide by 8 to get cups.

Hi,

Can you tell me how you got that number? Does it take into account
the increase in volume caused by the sugar addition itself?


--
Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

giovanni ) wrote:
>Here's the procedure (an example you can follow) that I posted and
>submitted to the original FAQ a few years back...

>YOU HAVE: 18.93 L (5 US gal) @ SG 1.057 (say 146 g/L) = 2,764 g sugar
>YOU WANT: 19.93 L @ SG 1.095 (say 250 g/L) = 4,733 g sugar
> ---------
> difference 1,969 g
>1lb sugar (454 g) takes up 0.29 L of volume, therefore
>1,969 g x 0.29 L = 1.26 L volume.
>Good luck - Giovanni


Hi Giovanni,

Thanks!

Is the equation 454 g of sugar = 0.29 L true after the sugar is
dissolved? That is, does 1 l of water + 1 pound of sugar = 1.29
l of dissolved sugar and water together?

Thanks again!!


Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

> Thanks!
>
> Is the equation 454 g of sugar = 0.29 L true after the sugar is
> dissolved? That is, does 1 l of water + 1 pound of sugar = 1.29
> l of dissolved sugar and water together?
>
> Thanks again!!
>

I don't have time to do the math David, but the conversion the TTB
uses is 13.5 pounds of sugar will increase volume by 1 US GAL.

clyde

(David C Breeden) wrote in message >...
> giovanni ) wrote:
> >Here's the procedure (an example you can follow) that I posted and
> >submitted to the original FAQ a few years back...
>
> >YOU HAVE: 18.93 L (5 US gal) @ SG 1.057 (say 146 g/L) = 2,764 g sugar
> >YOU WANT: 19.93 L @ SG 1.095 (say 250 g/L) = 4,733 g sugar
> > ---------
> > difference 1,969 g
> >1lb sugar (454 g) takes up 0.29 L of volume, therefore
> >1,969 g x 0.29 L = 1.26 L volume.
> >Good luck - Giovanni
>
>
> Hi Giovanni,
>
> Thanks!
>
> Is the equation 454 g of sugar = 0.29 L true after the sugar is
> dissolved? That is, does 1 l of water + 1 pound of sugar = 1.29
> l of dissolved sugar and water together?
>
> Thanks again!!
>
>
> Dave
> ************************************************** **************************
> Dave Breeden

Dave:

That looks right. I've just finished a batch of sugar syrup - 6L water
and 8kg regular sugar, which came to about 11L of syrup. You can get
the ratio from that, but it looks like what Giovanni said, more or
less.

Pp

(David C Breeden) wrote in message >...
> D. Evans ) wrote:
> >1.34 oz of sugar will raise your brix one point.
>
> > OG 15
> >_TG 21_
> > 06
> >raise brix by 6 points....1.34 X 06 X volume of must=how much sugar to add
> >in ounces..Divide the answer by 16 to get pounds..divide by 8 to get cups.
>
> Hi,
>
> Can you tell me how you got that number? Does it take into account
> the increase in volume caused by the sugar addition itself?

There is a really nice program for several wine making calculations at
http://www.geocities.com/mipeman. It is called WinCalc and allows you
to punch either gallons or liters and will give you all kinds of
goodies. I have had very good luck adding sugar to country wines and
it works for me. Aubrey

(David C Breeden) wrote in message >...
> D. Evans ) wrote:
> >1.34 oz of sugar will raise your brix one point.
>
> > OG 15
> >_TG 21_
> > 06
> >raise brix by 6 points....1.34 X 06 X volume of must=how much sugar to add
> >in ounces..Divide the answer by 16 to get pounds..divide by 8 to get cups.
>
> Hi,
>
> Can you tell me how you got that number? Does it take into account
> the increase in volume caused by the sugar addition itself?

There is a really nice program for several wine making calculations at
http://www.geocities.com/mipeman. It is called WinCalc and allows you
to punch either gallons or liters and will give you all kinds of
goodies. I have had very good luck adding sugar to country wines and
it works for me. Aubrey

Aubrey ) wrote:
(David C Breeden) wrote in message >...
>> D. Evans ) wrote:
>> >1.34 oz of sugar will raise your brix one point.
>>
>> > OG 15
>> >_TG 21_
>> > 06
>> >raise brix by 6 points....1.34 X 06 X volume of must=how much sugar to add
>> >in ounces..Divide the answer by 16 to get pounds..divide by 8 to get cups.
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Can you tell me how you got that number? Does it take into account
>> the increase in volume caused by the sugar addition itself?

>There is a really nice program for several wine making calculations at
>http://www.geocities.com/mipeman. It is called WinCalc and allows you
>to punch either gallons or liters and will give you all kinds of
>goodies. I have had very good luck adding sugar to country wines and
>it works for me. Aubrey

Thanks.

I pretty much don't want a "balck box," though. I need to see a
formula, and how the formula was derived.

My interest is in making additions to large volumes (1000 gals,
whatever) in which the volume created by the sugar itself makes a
differnce in the final calculation (i.e., if you calculate how much
sugar you need to add to reach a certain Brix based on your original
volume, that won't be enough to reach that Brix for the volume you
actually create when you add sugar to your must).

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

Aubrey ) wrote:
(David C Breeden) wrote in message >...
>> D. Evans ) wrote:
>> >1.34 oz of sugar will raise your brix one point.
>>
>> > OG 15
>> >_TG 21_
>> > 06
>> >raise brix by 6 points....1.34 X 06 X volume of must=how much sugar to add
>> >in ounces..Divide the answer by 16 to get pounds..divide by 8 to get cups.
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Can you tell me how you got that number? Does it take into account
>> the increase in volume caused by the sugar addition itself?

>There is a really nice program for several wine making calculations at
>http://www.geocities.com/mipeman. It is called WinCalc and allows you
>to punch either gallons or liters and will give you all kinds of
>goodies. I have had very good luck adding sugar to country wines and
>it works for me. Aubrey

Thanks.

I pretty much don't want a "balck box," though. I need to see a
formula, and how the formula was derived.

My interest is in making additions to large volumes (1000 gals,
whatever) in which the volume created by the sugar itself makes a
differnce in the final calculation (i.e., if you calculate how much
sugar you need to add to reach a certain Brix based on your original
volume, that won't be enough to reach that Brix for the volume you
actually create when you add sugar to your must).

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

David C Breeden wrote;
>
> I pretty much don't want a "balck box," though. I need to see a
> formula, and how the formula was derived.
>
> My interest is in making additions to large volumes (1000 gals,
> whatever) in which the volume created by the sugar itself makes a
> differnce in the final calculation (i.e., if you calculate how much
> sugar you need to add to reach a certain Brix based on your original
> volume, that won't be enough to reach that Brix for the volume you
> actually create when you add sugar to your must).

How about the following formula:
S = W (B - A) / (100-B)

Where S = weight of must to be added to increase must to a desired Brix
W = weight of must
B = desired brix
A = original brix of must

HTH.
Guy

(Guy Therrien) wrote in message . com>...
> David C Breeden wrote;
> >
> > I pretty much don't want a "balck box," though. I need to see a
> > formula, and how the formula was derived.
> >
> > My interest is in making additions to large volumes (1000 gals,
> > whatever) in which the volume created by the sugar itself makes a
> > differnce in the final calculation (i.e., if you calculate how much
> > sugar you need to add to reach a certain Brix based on your original
> > volume, that won't be enough to reach that Brix for the volume you
> > actually create when you add sugar to your must).
>
> How about the following formula:
> S = W (B - A) / (100-B)
>
> Where S = weight of must to be added to increase must to a desired Brix
> W = weight of must
> B = desired brix
> A = original brix of must
>
> HTH.
> Guy

That doesn't look right - plugging in some numbers:
case 1:
A=20, B=40, W=10kg gives 10*20/60 = 3.3kg
case 2:
A=20, B=60, W=10kg gives 10*40/40 = 10kg

So you'd need twice as much sugar for the same starting volume to go
from 40B to 60B than from 20 to 40, which is the same delta. Even
given the volume will jump up a bit after the 3.3kg, this can't
account for the difference of that magnitude.

Actually, even simpler test - same starting weight, same desired Brix
difference, but in one case you start at A of 20 and in another at A
of 40. Your W(B-A) is the same in both cases, but your 100-B is
different, so you're getting quite different S in each case although
with the starting conditions they should be the same, no?

Pp

(Guy Therrien) wrote in message . com>...
> David C Breeden wrote;
> >
> > I pretty much don't want a "balck box," though. I need to see a
> > formula, and how the formula was derived.
> >
> > My interest is in making additions to large volumes (1000 gals,
> > whatever) in which the volume created by the sugar itself makes a
> > differnce in the final calculation (i.e., if you calculate how much
> > sugar you need to add to reach a certain Brix based on your original
> > volume, that won't be enough to reach that Brix for the volume you
> > actually create when you add sugar to your must).
>
> How about the following formula:
> S = W (B - A) / (100-B)
>
> Where S = weight of must to be added to increase must to a desired Brix
> W = weight of must
> B = desired brix
> A = original brix of must
>
> HTH.
> Guy

That doesn't look right - plugging in some numbers:
case 1:
A=20, B=40, W=10kg gives 10*20/60 = 3.3kg
case 2:
A=20, B=60, W=10kg gives 10*40/40 = 10kg

So you'd need twice as much sugar for the same starting volume to go
from 40B to 60B than from 20 to 40, which is the same delta. Even
given the volume will jump up a bit after the 3.3kg, this can't
account for the difference of that magnitude.

Actually, even simpler test - same starting weight, same desired Brix
difference, but in one case you start at A of 20 and in another at A
of 40. Your W(B-A) is the same in both cases, but your 100-B is
different, so you're getting quite different S in each case although
with the starting conditions they should be the same, no?

Pp

(Guy Therrien) wrote in message . com>...
> How about the following formula:
> S = W (B - A) / (100-B)
>
> Where S = weight of must to be added to increase must to a desired Brix
> W = weight of must
> B = desired brix
> A = original brix of must
>
> HTH.
> Guy

A follow up on my previous post, trying to get to the bottom of this:
We have:
Vs - starting volume of must
Bs - starting Brix (not BS
and sugar by weight in a given volume is V*B/100 (V in litres, weight
in kg)

Then the basic formula is:
starting sugar + sugar addition = resulting sugar:
Vs*Bs/100 + dW = Ve*Be/100
(dW is added sugar by weight, e means "ending")
This gives:
Vs*Bs + 100*dW = (Vs+dV)*Be (dV is volume increase, so Ve =
Vs+dV)
100*dW = Vs*Be - Vs*Bs + Be*dV
= Vs*dB + Be*dV

Here is the funny part - the dV is affected by Be, and therefore by
Bs. If we assume that a given weight of sugar increases volume by a
fixed amount, which seems to make sense and is a pretty standard
assumption, then the formula says that you'd need more sugar the
higher your Bs is to get the same dB. If this is the case, you can
figure out how much volume increase you get from 1kg sugar and you'll
have the final formula. But the result seems counterintuitive to me, I
still can't figure out why the starting Brix would matter?

The other possibility is that the Bs doesn't matter. For this to work,
dV would have to proportionally decrease with the rising B, i.e., the
Be*dV should be constant for given dW, Vs, and dB. If this is the
case, you'd have to figure out the formula between dW, Be and dV,
which should be posible by doing some experiments. Again, I can't
really explain why this would be the case, but it makes intuitively
more sense to me. However, it goes against the assumption that volume
increase depends directly on weight, which seems pretty much
universal, so I don't know...

One way or another, some experimentation should tell you which is
correct - hopefully one of them is!

Pp

(Guy Therrien) wrote in message . com>...
> How about the following formula:
> S = W (B - A) / (100-B)
>
> Where S = weight of must to be added to increase must to a desired Brix
> W = weight of must
> B = desired brix
> A = original brix of must
>
> HTH.
> Guy

A follow up on my previous post, trying to get to the bottom of this:
We have:
Vs - starting volume of must
Bs - starting Brix (not BS
and sugar by weight in a given volume is V*B/100 (V in litres, weight
in kg)

Then the basic formula is:
starting sugar + sugar addition = resulting sugar:
Vs*Bs/100 + dW = Ve*Be/100
(dW is added sugar by weight, e means "ending")
This gives:
Vs*Bs + 100*dW = (Vs+dV)*Be (dV is volume increase, so Ve =
Vs+dV)
100*dW = Vs*Be - Vs*Bs + Be*dV
= Vs*dB + Be*dV

Here is the funny part - the dV is affected by Be, and therefore by
Bs. If we assume that a given weight of sugar increases volume by a
fixed amount, which seems to make sense and is a pretty standard
assumption, then the formula says that you'd need more sugar the
higher your Bs is to get the same dB. If this is the case, you can
figure out how much volume increase you get from 1kg sugar and you'll
have the final formula. But the result seems counterintuitive to me, I
still can't figure out why the starting Brix would matter?

The other possibility is that the Bs doesn't matter. For this to work,
dV would have to proportionally decrease with the rising B, i.e., the
Be*dV should be constant for given dW, Vs, and dB. If this is the
case, you'd have to figure out the formula between dW, Be and dV,
which should be posible by doing some experiments. Again, I can't
really explain why this would be the case, but it makes intuitively
more sense to me. However, it goes against the assumption that volume
increase depends directly on weight, which seems pretty much
universal, so I don't know...

One way or another, some experimentation should tell you which is
correct - hopefully one of them is!

Pp

Yes, it's the total volume of the 'new' liquid after the sugar has
been added (dissolved) to it.
(Sorry for the delay!) - Cheers,
Giovanni

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> giovanni ) wrote:
> >Here's the procedure (an example you can follow) that I posted and
> >submitted to the original FAQ a few years back...
>
> >YOU HAVE: 18.93 L (5 US gal) @ SG 1.057 (say 146 g/L) = 2,764 g
sugar
> >YOU WANT: 19.93 L @ SG 1.095 (say 250 g/L) = 4,733 g
sugar
> > ---------
> > difference 1,969 g
> >1lb sugar (454 g) takes up 0.29 L of volume, therefore
> >1,969 g x 0.29 L = 1.26 L volume.
> >Good luck - Giovanni
>
>
> Hi Giovanni,
>
> Thanks!
>
> Is the equation 454 g of sugar = 0.29 L true after the sugar is
> dissolved? That is, does 1 l of water + 1 pound of sugar = 1.29
> l of dissolved sugar and water together?
>
> Thanks again!!
>
>
> Dave
>
************************************************** ********************
******
> Dave Breeden