Hi folks,

Nice group you have here!
I hope you can help me out.

I've been making a 50/50 blend of Alicante/Grenache for the past 4 years.
It's a total of 780 lbs of grapes that makes about 60 gallons of wine by the
time it's done.
I crush the grapes with an electric crusher into a large primary fermentation
tub.
I've always relied on the natural yeast on the grape for fermentation and never
sulphited.

I basically followed a simple, old Italian recipe passed on by a friend of my
father.

But .... I'd like to improve my wine and have been reading a lot lately.
I've figured out how much pot. meta. to add, but I'm having trouble trying
to come up with the quantity of yeast.

Problem is, most recipes I've found are for only 1 to 5 gallons and call for a
couple
of 5 gram packets of yeast. Extending the 5 grams/5 gallons ratio, I'm figuring
that I'm going
to need about 60 grams of yeast. Am I way off base?

Also, if I were to use the juice from the must to make a starter before I pitch,
about
how much juice would that be?

"c4miles" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Hi folks,
>
> Nice group you have here!
> I hope you can help me out.
>
> I've been making a 50/50 blend of Alicante/Grenache for the past 4 years.
> It's a total of 780 lbs of grapes that makes about 60 gallons of wine by
the
> time it's done.
> I crush the grapes with an electric crusher into a large primary
fermentation
> tub.
> I've always relied on the natural yeast on the grape for fermentation and
never
> sulphited.
>
> I basically followed a simple, old Italian recipe passed on by a friend of
my
> father.
>
> But .... I'd like to improve my wine and have been reading a lot lately.
> I've figured out how much pot. meta. to add, but I'm having trouble trying
> to come up with the quantity of yeast.

I encourage your attempt to improve on your product. Just a few simple
things can make a _huge_ difference in quality.

IMO you should not add _any_ sulfite until after pressing (assuming clean
fruit [no rot]), and preferably not until ML is complete. SO2 slows down
the ML, and you _want_ that to go smoothly.

You should check your initial pH to make sure it's within acceptable limits.
3.4 - 3.6 is reasonable. Higher than that suggests adding tartaric acid to
bring it down to ~3.5 or so.

As far as yeast is concerned, you can hardly overdo that - but let's be
reasonable. Right after crushing, sprinkle about 50 grams of dried,
cultured yeast (your choice of strains, but Pasteur Red is a good choice)
over the top of the must (assuming 700 lbs of fruit, crushed into one
container). Leave it alone (covered) for half a day or so. It should begin
frothing as it rehydrates, and the easy access to air will help the yeast
along. It's not a bad idea to add yeast nutrient at this time to promote
yeast growth and prevent potential problems down the line, such as stuck
fermentation or "the stinkies". When the fermentation is obviously going
(white, foamy mung on the surface), stir it into the bulk of the must.
Punch down the cap several times a day during the active fermentation and
keep it covered.

As the fermentation slows down, you should keep the walls of the
fermenter(s) wiped clean, and it's not a bad idea to lightly spritz the
surface of the must (after punching down) with a sulfite solution from a
spray bottle, just before putting on the lid. I know I said "no sulfite",
but a little here is a good idea.

When the wine is dry, press the juice into drums or a tank. Let it settle
for a couple of hours and rack the clear portion into a barrel. Combine all
the rest into kegs and let it settle. Rack that too within a day or so.
The idea is to separate as much of the clean wine from the lees as quickly
as possible. The wine won't be anywhere near clear yet, but the difference
between the clearest fraction and the mucky stuff will be quite apparent.
You can salvage wine from the muck over the course of time, but at some
point the heavy lees may tend to go reductive on you and start to stink like
rotten eggs. By then, you should have already separated almost all of the
good wine from the goop, so you can just dump the latter. Believe me, it
isn't worth the trouble to try to salvage that last little bit. If you have
a fraction of clear stuff that's marginally stinky, _don't_ mix it into the
good stuff or you'll ruin the entire lot. Put some clean, pre-1982 pennies
(or even better, sterling silver) into it for a few days. That might clean
up the stink.

Keep the barrel topped up and airlocked until ML is complete. Then sulfite
it, top it up and bung it tight. Taste and top once a week or so until it's
nearly ready to bottle.

Then it's time to think about fining trials. Come back in a year or two and
we can get into that.

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "c4miles" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Nice group you have here!
> > I hope you can help me out.
> >
> > I've been making a 50/50 blend of Alicante/Grenache for the past 4 years.
> > It's a total of 780 lbs of grapes that makes about 60 gallons of wine by
> the
> > time it's done.
> > I crush the grapes with an electric crusher into a large primary
> fermentation
> > tub.
> > I've always relied on the natural yeast on the grape for fermentation and
> never
> > sulphited.
> >
> > I basically followed a simple, old Italian recipe passed on by a friend of
> my
> > father.
> >
> > But .... I'd like to improve my wine and have been reading a lot lately.
> > I've figured out how much pot. meta. to add, but I'm having trouble trying
> > to come up with the quantity of yeast.
>
> I encourage your attempt to improve on your product. Just a few simple
> things can make a _huge_ difference in quality.
>
> IMO you should not add _any_ sulfite until after pressing (assuming clean
> fruit [no rot]), and preferably not until ML is complete. SO2 slows down
> the ML, and you _want_ that to go smoothly.
>
> You should check your initial pH to make sure it's within acceptable limits.
> 3.4 - 3.6 is reasonable. Higher than that suggests adding tartaric acid to
> bring it down to ~3.5 or so.
>
> As far as yeast is concerned, you can hardly overdo that - but let's be
> reasonable. Right after crushing, sprinkle about 50 grams of dried,
> cultured yeast (your choice of strains, but Pasteur Red is a good choice)
> over the top of the must (assuming 700 lbs of fruit, crushed into one
> container). Leave it alone (covered) for half a day or so. It should begin
> frothing as it rehydrates, and the easy access to air will help the yeast
> along. It's not a bad idea to add yeast nutrient at this time to promote
> yeast growth and prevent potential problems down the line, such as stuck
> fermentation or "the stinkies". When the fermentation is obviously going
> (white, foamy mung on the surface), stir it into the bulk of the must.
> Punch down the cap several times a day during the active fermentation and
> keep it covered.
>
> As the fermentation slows down, you should keep the walls of the
> fermenter(s) wiped clean, and it's not a bad idea to lightly spritz the
> surface of the must (after punching down) with a sulfite solution from a
> spray bottle, just before putting on the lid. I know I said "no sulfite",
> but a little here is a good idea.
>
> When the wine is dry, press the juice into drums or a tank. Let it settle
> for a couple of hours and rack the clear portion into a barrel. Combine all
> the rest into kegs and let it settle. Rack that too within a day or so.
> The idea is to separate as much of the clean wine from the lees as quickly
> as possible. The wine won't be anywhere near clear yet, but the difference
> between the clearest fraction and the mucky stuff will be quite apparent.
> You can salvage wine from the muck over the course of time, but at some
> point the heavy lees may tend to go reductive on you and start to stink like
> rotten eggs. By then, you should have already separated almost all of the
> good wine from the goop, so you can just dump the latter. Believe me, it
> isn't worth the trouble to try to salvage that last little bit. If you have
> a fraction of clear stuff that's marginally stinky, _don't_ mix it into the
> good stuff or you'll ruin the entire lot. Put some clean, pre-1982 pennies
> (or even better, sterling silver) into it for a few days. That might clean
> up the stink.
>
> Keep the barrel topped up and airlocked until ML is complete. Then sulfite
> it, top it up and bung it tight. Taste and top once a week or so until it's
> nearly ready to bottle.
>
> Then it's time to think about fining trials. Come back in a year or two and
> we can get into that.
>
> Tom S
>
>

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to give me your detailed advice.
I really appreciate it.

A couple of follow-up questions if I may ...

I was thinking of adding pectic enzyme to the must immediately after crushing.
Would it be acceptable to add the yeast and yeast nutrient immediately after
that? Or wait a few hours? Or just skip this step altogether?

I was apprehensive about adding the sulphite during the primary, so I will
follow your advice to wait until later. Do you think it would also be a good
idea to add potassium sorbate while adding the pot. meta?

Mike

"c4miles" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> A couple of follow-up questions if I may ...
>
> I was thinking of adding pectic enzyme to the must immediately after
crushing.
> Would it be acceptable to add the yeast and yeast nutrient immediately
after
> that? Or wait a few hours? Or just skip this step altogether?

I've never found it necessary to add pectic enzyme to red must - only
whites.

> I was apprehensive about adding the sulphite during the primary, so I will
> follow your advice to wait until later. Do you think it would also be a
good
> idea to add potassium sorbate while adding the pot. meta?

Assuming you're making a dry wine, there's no reason to add _any_ potassium
sorbate to either the must or wine. That's only added to sweet wines prior
to bottling to prevent the fermentation from restarting in the bottle.

FWIW, commercial wineries that make sweet wines usually don't use sorbate
either because it imparts a taste that some people (like me) find
unpleasant. They sterile filter their wines instead. Sterile filtration is
an option for home winemakers too. It really isn't that difficult, but
sorbate is definitely easier and cheaper.

Tom S

Tom,

How do YOU do sterile filtering?? If I may ask, what filter do you use
and where did you get it?

TIA,
Bob

"Tom S" > wrote in message . com>...
> "c4miles" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> > A couple of follow-up questions if I may ...
> >
> > I was thinking of adding pectic enzyme to the must immediately after
> crushing.
> > Would it be acceptable to add the yeast and yeast nutrient immediately
> after
> > that? Or wait a few hours? Or just skip this step altogether?
>
> I've never found it necessary to add pectic enzyme to red must - only
> whites.
>
> > I was apprehensive about adding the sulphite during the primary, so I will
> > follow your advice to wait until later. Do you think it would also be a
> good
> > idea to add potassium sorbate while adding the pot. meta?
>
> Assuming you're making a dry wine, there's no reason to add _any_ potassium
> sorbate to either the must or wine. That's only added to sweet wines prior
> to bottling to prevent the fermentation from restarting in the bottle.
>
> FWIW, commercial wineries that make sweet wines usually don't use sorbate
> either because it imparts a taste that some people (like me) find
> unpleasant. They sterile filter their wines instead. Sterile filtration is
> an option for home winemakers too. It really isn't that difficult, but
> sorbate is definitely easier and cheaper.
>
> Tom S

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> Tom,
>
> How do YOU do sterile filtering?? If I may ask, what filter do you use
> and where did you get it?

I use a 10" membrane cartridge rated at 0.45µ absolute, in an Amatek
housing. The cartridges are a little expensive (~$100).

The wine needs to be clear to start with or it'll plug up the filter in no
time. That said, a cartridge will last for many batches of wine if you
maintain it carefully and don't load it with cloudy wine. I recommend
storing in vodka between uses to prevent things from growing in it.

Tom S

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> Tom,
>
> How do YOU do sterile filtering?? If I may ask, what filter do you use
> and where did you get it?

I use a 10" membrane cartridge rated at 0.45µ absolute, in an Amatek
housing. The cartridges are a little expensive (~$100).

The wine needs to be clear to start with or it'll plug up the filter in no
time. That said, a cartridge will last for many batches of wine if you
maintain it carefully and don't load it with cloudy wine. I recommend
storing in vodka between uses to prevent things from growing in it.

Tom S

Tom,

How do YOU do sterile filtering?? If I may ask, what filter do you use
and where did you get it?

TIA,
Bob

"Tom S" > wrote in message . com>...
> "c4miles" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> > A couple of follow-up questions if I may ...
> >
> > I was thinking of adding pectic enzyme to the must immediately after
> crushing.
> > Would it be acceptable to add the yeast and yeast nutrient immediately
> after
> > that? Or wait a few hours? Or just skip this step altogether?
>
> I've never found it necessary to add pectic enzyme to red must - only
> whites.
>
> > I was apprehensive about adding the sulphite during the primary, so I will
> > follow your advice to wait until later. Do you think it would also be a
> good
> > idea to add potassium sorbate while adding the pot. meta?
>
> Assuming you're making a dry wine, there's no reason to add _any_ potassium
> sorbate to either the must or wine. That's only added to sweet wines prior
> to bottling to prevent the fermentation from restarting in the bottle.
>
> FWIW, commercial wineries that make sweet wines usually don't use sorbate
> either because it imparts a taste that some people (like me) find
> unpleasant. They sterile filter their wines instead. Sterile filtration is
> an option for home winemakers too. It really isn't that difficult, but
> sorbate is definitely easier and cheaper.
>
> Tom S