I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
making.

The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.

The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
wine being stored in a cooler place.
I would welcome comments
Michael

michael wrote:

> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> making.
>
> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>
> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> I would welcome comments
> Michael

Yes indeed. Red wine will taste different at the temperature ranges you
mentioned. I belive most people will find that red wines in the 50 - 55
temperature range taste better to them for red wines. I am not sure how
temperature relates to taste of tannins but even with whites, the cooler
the temperature, the more acidic the wine will taste and the more "fruity".

"Room Temperature" has a different meaning today than it did in the old days
without the modern heating systems we have today. Try some of your whites
at different temperatures and see if you can tell the difference also.

In article
>,
michael > wrote:

> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> making.
>
> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>
> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> I would welcome comments
> Michael

Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
Sparkling: 7C - 8C
Dessert Wines: 6C

Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
--
³When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist.²
-Archbishop Helder Camara
http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

Wildbilly wrote:

> In article
> >,
> michael > wrote:
>
>> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
>> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
>> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
>> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
>> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
>> making.
>>
>> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
>> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
>> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
>> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
>> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
>> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
>> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
>> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
>> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
>> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
>> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>>
>> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
>> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
>> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
>> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
>> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
>> wine being stored in a cooler place.
>> I would welcome comments
>> Michael
>
> Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
I like your quote at the bottom

Paul

On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> Wildbilly wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *michael > wrote:
>
> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> >> making.
>
> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>
> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> >> I would welcome comments
> >> Michael
>
> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
>
> I like your quote at the bottom
>
> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the comments.
I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
Michael

michael wrote:

> On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> Wildbilly wrote:
>> > In article
>> > >,
>> > michael > wrote:
>>
>> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
>> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
>> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
>> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
>> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
>> >> making.
>>
>> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
>> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
>> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
>> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
>> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
>> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
>> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
>> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
>> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
>> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
>> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>>
>> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
>> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
>> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
>> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
>> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
>> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
>> >> I would welcome comments
>> >> Michael
>>
>> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
>> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
>> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
>> > Dessert Wines: 6C
>>
>> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
>> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
>> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
>> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
>>
>> I like your quote at the bottom
>>
>> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for the comments.
> I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> Michael

Try this:

Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save the rest
in the opened bottle until the next day. Test to see how the remaining
wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. If it is a lot better
taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs more
time.

Have you checked out the site:

http://www.winepress.us/

There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good topics
and opinions. I am known as PEL on the site. You can also post pictures
which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. They have been having
problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently.

Paul

Michael,

You need to rack it more. Just keeping it in the carboy is not the
answer. Rack it every 6 months and the tannins mellow. Additionally,
heating the wine is a good way of degassing it. You might have still
had CO2 in it.

On Feb 9, 6:19*am, michael > wrote:
> On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Wildbilly wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *michael > wrote:
>
> > >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> > >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> > >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> > >> making.
>
> > >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> > >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> > >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> > >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> > >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> > >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> > >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> > >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> > >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>
> > >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> > >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> > >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> > >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> > >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > >> I would welcome comments
> > >> Michael
>
> > > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> > > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> > > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
>
> > I like your quote at the bottom
>
> > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for the comments.
> I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> Michael

In article
>,
michael > wrote:

> On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > Wildbilly wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *michael > wrote:
> >
> > >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> > >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> > >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> > >> making.
> >
> > >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> > >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> > >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> > >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> > >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> > >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> > >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> > >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> > >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
> >
> > >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> > >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> > >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> > >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> > >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > >> I would welcome comments
> > >> Michael
> >
> > > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > Dessert Wines: 6C
> >
> > > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> > > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
> >
> > I like your quote at the bottom
> >
> > Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for the comments.
> I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> Michael

All things being equal, red wines don't age well in glass. If it is just
the tannins that are bothering you, egg white fine, 2 egg whites/60 gal.
(don't beat them stiff). Otherwise, your wines are stable now. All the
microorganisms in the wine are now history. It seems a waste to throw
that away. Re-fermenting seems like a very bad idea, a very bad idea,
indeed.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

Red wine does fine in glass . You have to rack it to add controlled
amount of oxygen. In barrels that oxygen seeps into it through the
wood. Add ing wood chips and racking at 3-6 month intervals makes for
a great wine. SO2 addition each rack is required also.

On Feb 10, 1:37*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
>
>
> *michael > wrote:
> > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > Wildbilly wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> > > > *michael > wrote:
>
> > > >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> > > >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > > >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > > >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> > > >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> > > >> making.
>
> > > >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> > > >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> > > >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> > > >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> > > >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > > >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> > > >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> > > >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > > >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> > > >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> > > >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>
> > > >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > > >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> > > >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> > > >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> > > >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> > > >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > > >> I would welcome comments
> > > >> Michael
>
> > > > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > > Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> > > > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> > > > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > > > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > > > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
>
> > > I like your quote at the bottom
>
> > > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for the comments.
> > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > Michael
>
> All things being equal, red wines don't age well in glass. If it is just
> the tannins that are bothering you, egg white fine, 2 egg whites/60 gal.
> (don't beat them stiff). Otherwise, your wines are stable now. All the
> microorganisms in the wine are now history. It seems a waste to throw
> that away. Re-fermenting seems like a very bad idea, a very bad idea,
> indeed.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines

In article
>,
wrote:

> Red wine does fine in glass . You have to rack it to add controlled
> amount of oxygen. In barrels that oxygen seeps into it through the
> wood. Add ing wood chips and racking at 3-6 month intervals makes for
> a great wine. SO2 addition each rack is required also.

If it is a light red wine, and not too tannic, you can follow doublesb's
suggestion of racking, but do a gentle racking. Most Côtes du Rhône are
tank wines (large bottles) that are meant to be drunk young. Barrel aged
wine gets its' oxygen from being "topped" every three months or so, to
fill up the ullage from evaporation through the wood. My experience is
that the more you leave a wine alone, the better it is. Of course, there
are times that you need to intervene, but the fewer times they are
opened and exposed to the air, the better.
>
> On Feb 10, 1:37*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *michael > wrote:
> > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > Wildbilly wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > >,
> > > > > *michael > wrote:
> >
> > > > >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> > > > >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > > > >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > > > >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making
> > > > >> some
> > > > >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> > > > >> making.
> >
> > > > >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> > > > >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> > > > >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> > > > >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> > > > >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > > > >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> > > > >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> > > > >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > > > >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> > > > >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> > > > >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
> >
> > > > >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > > > >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very
> > > > >> good,with
> > > > >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> > > > >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea
> > > > >> that
> > > > >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> > > > >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > > > >> I would welcome comments
> > > > >> Michael
> >
> > > > > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > > > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > > > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > > > Dessert Wines: 6C
> >
> > > > > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it
> > > > > will
> > > > > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > > > > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > > > > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them
> > > > > ;O)
> >
> > > > I like your quote at the bottom
> >
> > > > Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > Thanks for the comments.
> > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> > > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > > Michael
> >
> > All things being equal, red wines don't age well in glass. If it is just
> > the tannins that are bothering you, egg white fine, 2 egg whites/60 gal.
> > (don't beat them stiff). Otherwise, your wines are stable now. All the
> > microorganisms in the wine are now history. It seems a waste to throw
> > that away. Re-fermenting seems like a very bad idea, a very bad idea,
> > indeed.
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> Wildbilly wrote:
> >> > In article
> >> > >,
> >> > michael > wrote:
>
> >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> >> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> >> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> >> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> >> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> >> >> making.
>
> >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> >> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> >> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> >> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> >> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> >> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> >> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> >> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> >> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> >> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual..
>
> >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> >> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> >> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> >> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> >> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> >> >> I would welcome comments
> >> >> Michael
>
> >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> >> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> >> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> >> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
>
> >> I like your quote at the bottom
>
> >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for the comments.
> > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > Michael
>
> Try this:
>
> Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save the rest
> in the opened bottle until the next day. *Test to see how the remaining
> wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. *If it is a lot better
> taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs more
> time.
>
> Have you checked out the site:
>
> http://www.winepress.us/
>
> There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good topics
> and opinions. *I am known as PEL on the site. *You can also post pictures
> which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. *They have been having
> problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently.
>
> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
Thanks again
Michael

In article
>,
michael > wrote:

> On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > michael wrote:
> > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> Wildbilly wrote:
> > >> > In article
> > >> > >,
> > >> > michael > wrote:
> >
> > >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> > >> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > >> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > >> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> > >> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> > >> >> making.
> >
> > >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> > >> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> > >> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> > >> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> > >> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > >> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> > >> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> > >> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> > >> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> > >> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
> >
> > >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> > >> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> > >> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> > >> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> > >> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > >> >> I would welcome comments
> > >> >> Michael
> >
> > >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
> >
> > >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> > >> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > >> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > >> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
> >
> > >> I like your quote at the bottom
> >
> > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > Thanks for the comments.
> > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> > > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > > Michael
> >
> > Try this:
> >
> > Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save the rest
> > in the opened bottle until the next day. *Test to see how the remaining
> > wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. *If it is a lot better
> > taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs more
> > time.
> >
> > Have you checked out the site:
> >
> > http://www.winepress.us/
> >
> > There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good topics
> > and opinions. *I am known as PEL on the site. *You can also post pictures
> > which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. *They have been having
> > problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently.
> >
> > Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
> day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
> maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
> tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
> not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
> inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
> would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
> introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
> small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
> red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
> Thanks again
> Michael

All wines need SO2, unless you're making vinegar (little is needed below
pH3). 30ppm is about the max. free SO2 that you want. If you add 30ppm
to each racking, the wine will be undrinkable. Polymerization of tannins
is a slow oxidation. Exposure to the air is will lead to rapid oxidation
---> acetic acid ---> acetaldehyde ---> big waste of time, effort, money.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

Wildbill,

I've never experienced oxidation from racking. As long as there is
free SO2 the wine will not oxidize. I add 50ppm each rack and the wine
is very drinkable. In fact, it's better than any commercial stuff made
from the same quality grapes I use. If Micheal added 30ppm each rack
it would take 10 racks to get to 300ppm. That's assuming no oxygen is
introduced during racking. IOW, it won't even be close to 300ppm and
probably more close to 30ppm at the end.

On Feb 11, 10:44*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
>
>
> *michael > wrote:
> > On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > michael wrote:
> > > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > >> Wildbilly wrote:
> > > >> > In article
> > > >> > >,
> > > >> > michael > wrote:
>
> > > >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> > > >> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > > >> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > > >> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> > > >> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> > > >> >> making.
>
> > > >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> > > >> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> > > >> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> > > >> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> > > >> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > > >> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> > > >> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> > > >> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > > >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> > > >> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> > > >> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>
> > > >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > > >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> > > >> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> > > >> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> > > >> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> > > >> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > > >> >> I would welcome comments
> > > >> >> Michael
>
> > > >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> > > >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> > > >> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > > >> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > > >> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
>
> > > >> I like your quote at the bottom
>
> > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Thanks for the comments.
> > > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > > > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> > > > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > > > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > > > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > > > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > > > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > > > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > > > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > > > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > > > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > > > Michael
>
> > > Try this:
>
> > > Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save the rest
> > > in the opened bottle until the next day. *Test to see how the remaining
> > > wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. *If it is a lot better
> > > taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs more
> > > time.
>
> > > Have you checked out the site:
>
> > >http://www.winepress.us/
>
> > > There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good topics
> > > and opinions. *I am known as PEL on the site. *You can also post pictures
> > > which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. *They have been having
> > > problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently.
>
> > > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
> > day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
> > maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
> > tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
> > not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
> > inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
> > would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
> > introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
> > small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
> > red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
> > Thanks again
> > Michael
>
> All wines need SO2, unless you're making vinegar (little is needed below
> pH3). 30ppm is about the max. free SO2 that you want. If you add 30ppm
> to each racking, the wine will be undrinkable. Polymerization of tannins
> is a slow oxidation. Exposure to the air is will lead to rapid oxidation
> ---> acetic acid ---> acetaldehyde ---> big waste of time, effort, money.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines

BTW,

Adding 30ppm SO2 to a non-sulfited wine will not leave 30ppm FREE SO2.
Think about it, most of it will bind with the oxygen during racking.


On Feb 11, 10:44*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
>
>
> *michael > wrote:
> > On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > michael wrote:
> > > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > >> Wildbilly wrote:
> > > >> > In article
> > > >> > >,
> > > >> > michael > wrote:
>
> > > >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> > > >> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > > >> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > > >> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> > > >> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> > > >> >> making.
>
> > > >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> > > >> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> > > >> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> > > >> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> > > >> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > > >> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> > > >> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> > > >> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > > >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> > > >> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> > > >> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>
> > > >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > > >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> > > >> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> > > >> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> > > >> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> > > >> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > > >> >> I would welcome comments
> > > >> >> Michael
>
> > > >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> > > >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> > > >> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > > >> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > > >> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
>
> > > >> I like your quote at the bottom
>
> > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Thanks for the comments.
> > > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > > > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> > > > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > > > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > > > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > > > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > > > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > > > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > > > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > > > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > > > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > > > Michael
>
> > > Try this:
>
> > > Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save the rest
> > > in the opened bottle until the next day. *Test to see how the remaining
> > > wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. *If it is a lot better
> > > taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs more
> > > time.
>
> > > Have you checked out the site:
>
> > >http://www.winepress.us/
>
> > > There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good topics
> > > and opinions. *I am known as PEL on the site. *You can also post pictures
> > > which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. *They have been having
> > > problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently.
>
> > > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
> > day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
> > maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
> > tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
> > not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
> > inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
> > would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
> > introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
> > small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
> > red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
> > Thanks again
> > Michael
>
> All wines need SO2, unless you're making vinegar (little is needed below
> pH3). 30ppm is about the max. free SO2 that you want. If you add 30ppm
> to each racking, the wine will be undrinkable. Polymerization of tannins
> is a slow oxidation. Exposure to the air is will lead to rapid oxidation
> ---> acetic acid ---> acetaldehyde ---> big waste of time, effort, money.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines

Michael,

When you leave it in an opened bottle, is it a full bottle? IOW, is it
full up into the neck? If it is, that won't do much to aerate the
bottle. The surface area isn't big enough to have much effect on the
volume of wine in the bottle. That's why wine is filled up into the
neck in the first place, Take the bottle and pour it vigorously into a
glass pitcher and leave it over night and drink it the next night, 24
hrs. Don't worry, it won't go bad, in fact it'll get much better.


On Feb 11, 6:29*am, michael > wrote:
> On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > michael wrote:
> > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> Wildbilly wrote:
> > >> > In article
> > >> > >,
> > >> > michael > wrote:
>
> > >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed for
> > >> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > >> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > >> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making some
> > >> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red wine
> > >> >> making.
>
> > >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening very
> > >> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins and
> > >> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation after 2
> > >> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The wine
> > >> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > >> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty cold
> > >> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very
> > >> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine was
> > >> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a dinner
> > >> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite unusual.
>
> > >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very good,with
> > >> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well aware
> > >> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea that
> > >> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to assess
> > >> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > >> >> I would welcome comments
> > >> >> Michael
>
> > >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> > >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it will
> > >> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you the
> > >> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp to
> > >> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them ;O)
>
> > >> I like your quote at the bottom
>
> > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Thanks for the comments.
> > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of the
> > > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > > Michael
>
> > Try this:
>
> > Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save the rest
> > in the opened bottle until the next day. *Test to see how the remaining
> > wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. *If it is a lot better
> > taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs more
> > time.
>
> > Have you checked out the site:
>
> >http://www.winepress.us/
>
> > There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good topics
> > and opinions. *I am known as PEL on the site. *You can also post pictures
> > which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. *They have been having
> > problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently.
>
> > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
> day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
> maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
> tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
> not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
> inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
> would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
> introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
> small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
> red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
> Thanks again
> Michael

wrote:

> Wildbill,
>
> I've never experienced oxidation from racking. As long as there is
> free SO2 the wine will not oxidize. I add 50ppm each rack and the wine
> is very drinkable. In fact, it's better than any commercial stuff made
> from the same quality grapes I use. If Micheal added 30ppm each rack
> it would take 10 racks to get to 300ppm. That's assuming no oxygen is
> introduced during racking. IOW, it won't even be close to 300ppm and
> probably more close to 30ppm at the end.
>
> On Feb 11, 10:44Â*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
>> In article
>> >,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> michael > wrote:
>> > On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> > > michael wrote:
>> > > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >> Wildbilly wrote:
>> > > >> > In article
>> > > >> >
>,
>> > > >> > michael > wrote:
>>
>> > > >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed
>> > > >> >> for early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and
>> > > >> >> have been amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini
>> > > >> >> vineyard is in Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I
>> > > >> >> have been making some excellent dry white wines(as judged by
>> > > >> >> others),I am new to red wine making.
>>
>> > > >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening
>> > > >> >> very well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the
>> > > >> >> skins and with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full
>> > > >> >> fermentation after 2 to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6
>> > > >> >> days maceration.The wine was matured in gallon glass demijohns
>> > > >> >> for three years,and bottled recently.I tried the wine in my
>> > > >> >> cool pantry (it has been pretty cold in England this
>> > > >> >> winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a very nice fruity
>> > > >> >> nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
>> > > >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine
>> > > >> >> was that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at
>> > > >> >> a dinner party,as English red wine made from English grapes is
>> > > >> >> quite unusual.
>>
>> > > >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
>> > > >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very
>> > > >> >> good,with absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at
>> > > >> >> 50F.I am well aware that red wine should be drunk at room
>> > > >> >> temperature,but had no idea that its character should change so
>> > > >> >> much;it makes it difficult to assess wine being stored in a
>> > > >> >> cooler place. I would welcome comments
>> > > >> >> Michael
>>
>> > > >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
>> > > >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
>> > > >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
>> > > >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
>>
>> > > >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and
>> > > >> > it will seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can
>> > > >> > tell you the right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is
>> > > >> > the best temp to serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then
>> > > >> > you can break them ;O)
>>
>> > > >> I like your quote at the bottom
>>
>> > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > > > Thanks for the comments.
>> > > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
>> > > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
>> > > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the
>> > > > glass with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the
>> > > > bottom of the demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix
>> > > > 18.5 which about the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly
>> > > > a little low on acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is
>> > > > deep red and clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste
>> > > > gets better on the second or third glass,but presumably all wines
>> > > > do due to the alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a
>> > > > supermarket wine at 8 dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent
>> > > > dinner party liked it and my daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel
>> > > > that I need more understanding of what I perceive to be wrong,in
>> > > > order to improve it. Michael
>>
>> > > Try this:
>>
>> > > Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save
>> > > the rest in the opened bottle until the next day. Â*Test to see how
>> > > the remaining wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days.
>> > > If it is a lot better taste to you, then your wine will improve with
>> > > age - it just needs more time.
>>
>> > > Have you checked out the site:
>>
>> > >http://www.winepress.us/
>>
>> > > There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good
>> > > topics and opinions. Â*I am known as PEL on the site. Â*You can also
>> > > post pictures which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. Â*They
>> > > have been having problems with their server but it has been fairly
>> > > stable recently.
>>
>> > > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
>> > day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
>> > maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
>> > tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
>> > not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
>> > inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
>> > would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
>> > introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
>> > small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
>> > red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
>> > Thanks again
>> > Michael
>>
>> All wines need SO2, unless you're making vinegar (little is needed below
>> pH3). 30ppm is about the max. free SO2 that you want. If you add 30ppm
>> to each racking, the wine will be undrinkable. Polymerization of tannins
>> is a slow oxidation. Exposure to the air is will lead to rapid oxidation
>> ---> acetic acid ---> acetaldehyde ---> big waste of time, effort, money.
>> --
>> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
>> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>>
>>
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines

Here is some information I have found:

The California Wine Institute proposes an upper limit of 175 ppm for reds
and 225 ppm for whites

The FDA allows up to 350 ppm

I believe they are referring to Total SO2

From what I have read, depending on pH of course, up to about 60 - 70 ppm,
about half will be bound. Beyond that the bound becomes less - maybe about
a third or less will become bound.

I won't argue with you about your experiences. I'm just saying that
around 100ppm free SO2 (FSO2), some say less, the wine will give you a
headache, and if you are an asthmatic, shove you into an attack.

In winemaking
In low concentrations SO2 is mostly undetectable in wine, but at over
50ppm, SO2 becomes evident in the nose and taste of wine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide

http://www.winemakermag.com/stories/...ld-i-add-campd
en-tablets-each-time-i-rack-my-wine-and-how-do-i-measure-the-level-of-sul
fite-in-my-wine

Additionally, SO2 will bleach your wine, striping out the purple hues in
reds, and make whites look like water. This is one of the reasons for
using as little as is needed.

Not all wine oxidation is mediated by acetobacter, direct molecular
oxidation can happen as well. It seems from your statement, that you
think you could leave wine in an open pot, and it would be perfectly
fine, as long as it had FSO2. This is not the case. You will get
spoilage from direct oxidation and aerobic organisms.

If you can't taste the difference, there is no need to change your
habits.

In article
>,
wrote:

> Wildbill,
>
> I've never experienced oxidation from racking. As long as there is
> free SO2 the wine will not oxidize. I add 50ppm each rack and the wine
> is very drinkable. In fact, it's better than any commercial stuff made
> from the same quality grapes I use. If Micheal added 30ppm each rack
> it would take 10 racks to get to 300ppm. That's assuming no oxygen is
> introduced during racking. IOW, it won't even be close to 300ppm and
> probably more close to 30ppm at the end.
>
> On Feb 11, 10:44*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *michael > wrote:
> > > On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > michael wrote:
> > > > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > >> Wildbilly wrote:
> > > > >> > In article
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > ,
> > > > >> > michael > wrote:
> >
> > > > >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed
> > > > >> >> for
> > > > >> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > > > >> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > > > >> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making
> > > > >> >> some
> > > > >> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red
> > > > >> >> wine
> > > > >> >> making.
> >
> > > > >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening
> > > > >> >> very
> > > > >> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins
> > > > >> >> and
> > > > >> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation
> > > > >> >> after 2
> > > > >> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The
> > > > >> >> wine
> > > > >> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > > > >> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty
> > > > >> >> cold
> > > > >> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a
> > > > >> >> very
> > > > >> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > > > >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine
> > > > >> >> was
> > > > >> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a
> > > > >> >> dinner
> > > > >> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite
> > > > >> >> unusual.
> >
> > > > >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > > > >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very
> > > > >> >> good,with
> > > > >> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well
> > > > >> >> aware
> > > > >> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea
> > > > >> >> that
> > > > >> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to
> > > > >> >> assess
> > > > >> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > > > >> >> I would welcome comments
> > > > >> >> Michael
> >
> > > > >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > > >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > > >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > > >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
> >
> > > > >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it
> > > > >> > will
> > > > >> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you
> > > > >> > the
> > > > >> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp
> > > > >> > to
> > > > >> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them
> > > > >> > ;O)
> >
> > > > >> I like your quote at the bottom
> >
> > > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > > > Thanks for the comments.
> > > > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > > > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > > > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > > > > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of
> > > > > the
> > > > > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > > > > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > > > > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > > > > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > > > > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > > > > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > > > > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > > > > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > > > > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > > > > Michael
> >
> > > > Try this:
> >
> > > > Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save the
> > > > rest
> > > > in the opened bottle until the next day. *Test to see how the remaining
> > > > wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. *If it is a lot
> > > > better
> > > > taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs more
> > > > time.
> >
> > > > Have you checked out the site:
> >
> > > >http://www.winepress.us/
> >
> > > > There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good
> > > > topics
> > > > and opinions. *I am known as PEL on the site. *You can also post
> > > > pictures
> > > > which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. *They have been having
> > > > problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently.
> >
> > > > Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
> > > day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
> > > maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
> > > tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
> > > not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
> > > inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
> > > would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
> > > introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
> > > small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
> > > red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
> > > Thanks again
> > > Michael
> >
> > All wines need SO2, unless you're making vinegar (little is needed below
> > pH3). 30ppm is about the max. free SO2 that you want. If you add 30ppm
> > to each racking, the wine will be undrinkable. Polymerization of tannins
> > is a slow oxidation. Exposure to the air is will lead to rapid oxidation
> > ---> acetic acid ---> acetaldehyde ---> big waste of time, effort, money.
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

On 12 Feb, 03:02, Wildbilly > wrote:
> I won't argue with you about your experiences. I'm just saying that
> around 100ppm free SO2 (FSO2), some say less, the wine will give you a
> headache, and if you are an asthmatic, shove you into an attack.
>
> In winemaking
> In low concentrations SO2 is mostly undetectable in wine, but at over
> 50ppm, SO2 becomes evident in the nose and taste of wine.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide
>
> http://www.winemakermag.com/stories/...should-i-add-c...
> en-tablets-each-time-i-rack-my-wine-and-how-do-i-measure-the-level-of-sul
> fite-in-my-wine
>
> Additionally, SO2 will bleach your wine, striping out the purple hues in
> reds, and make whites look like water. This is one of the reasons for
> using as little as is needed.
>
> Not all wine oxidation is mediated by acetobacter, direct molecular
> oxidation can happen as well. It seems from your statement, that you
> think you could leave wine in an open pot, and it would be perfectly
> fine, as long as it had FSO2. This is not the case. You will get
> spoilage from direct oxidation and aerobic organisms.
>
> If you can't taste the difference, there is no need to change your
> habits.
>
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > Wildbill,
>
> > I've never experienced oxidation from racking. As long as there is
> > free SO2 the wine will not oxidize. I add 50ppm each rack and the wine
> > is very drinkable. In fact, it's better than any commercial stuff made
> > from the same quality grapes I use. If Micheal added 30ppm each rack
> > it would take 10 racks to get to 300ppm. That's assuming no oxygen is
> > introduced during racking. IOW, it won't even be close to 300ppm and
> > probably more close to 30ppm at the end.
>
> > On Feb 11, 10:44*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
>
> > > *michael > wrote:
> > > > On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > > michael wrote:
> > > > > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > > >> Wildbilly wrote:
> > > > > >> > In article
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > ,
> > > > > >> > michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid developed
> > > > > >> >> for
> > > > > >> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have been
> > > > > >> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard is in
> > > > > >> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been making
> > > > > >> >> some
> > > > > >> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to red
> > > > > >> >> wine
> > > > > >> >> making.
>
> > > > > >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes ripening
> > > > > >> >> very
> > > > > >> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the skins
> > > > > >> >> and
> > > > > >> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation
> > > > > >> >> after 2
> > > > > >> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days maceration.The
> > > > > >> >> wine
> > > > > >> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and bottled
> > > > > >> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been pretty
> > > > > >> >> cold
> > > > > >> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had a
> > > > > >> >> very
> > > > > >> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it with a
> > > > > >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that mine
> > > > > >> >> was
> > > > > >> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a
> > > > > >> >> dinner
> > > > > >> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite
> > > > > >> >> unusual.
>
> > > > > >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For room
> > > > > >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very
> > > > > >> >> good,with
> > > > > >> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am well
> > > > > >> >> aware
> > > > > >> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no idea
> > > > > >> >> that
> > > > > >> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to
> > > > > >> >> assess
> > > > > >> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > > > > >> >> I would welcome comments
> > > > > >> >> Michael
>
> > > > > >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > > > >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > > > >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > > > >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
>
> > > > > >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm and it
> > > > > >> > will
> > > > > >> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell you
> > > > > >> > the
> > > > > >> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best temp
> > > > > >> > to
> > > > > >> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break them
> > > > > >> > ;O)
>
> > > > > >> I like your quote at the bottom
>
> > > > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > Thanks for the comments.
> > > > > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > > > > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > > > > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the glass
> > > > > > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which about
> > > > > > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > > > > > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > > > > > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets better on
> > > > > > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > > > > > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine at 8
> > > > > > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and my
> > > > > > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more understanding
> > > > > > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > > > > > Michael
>
> > > > > Try this:
>
> > > > > Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save the
> > > > > rest
> > > > > in the opened bottle until the next day. *Test to see how the remaining
> > > > > wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. *If it is a lot
> > > > > better
> > > > > taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs more
> > > > > time.
>
> > > > > Have you checked out the site:
>
> > > > >http://www.winepress.us/
>
> > > > > There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of good
> > > > > topics
> > > > > and opinions. *I am known as PEL on the site. *You can also post
> > > > > pictures
> > > > > which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. *They have been having
> > > > > problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently..
>
> > > > > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
> > > > day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
> > > > maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
> > > > tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
> > > > not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
> > > > inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
> > > > would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
> > > > introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
> > > > small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
> > > > red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
> > > > Thanks again
> > > > Michael
>
> > > All wines need SO2, unless you're making vinegar (little is needed below
> > > pH3). 30ppm is about the max. free SO2 that you want. If you add 30ppm
> > > to each racking, the wine will be undrinkable. Polymerization of tannins
> > > is a slow oxidation. Exposure to the air is will lead to rapid oxidation
> > > ---> acetic acid ---> acetaldehyde ---> big waste of time, effort, money.
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....
> > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
>
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/.../19/headlines- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for all of your comments.
My general summary of what I have learned is that maturation in glass
is a slower process than in oak where the barrels let air in slowly.My
observation that the taste is a little better from a half-filled
bottle the day after opening does suggest that some oxidation at this
stage does help the flavour.This particular vintage was rather low on
acid,and I am also wondering if this could effect the overlying tannic
taste.
I do rack my red wine once after fermentation (say in November),when I
add 30ppm, and then once again after about another six months,adding a
further 30ppm.I then leave it for a couple of years or so,though do
sample a tiny amount from time to time,which does let in a small
amount of air.Perhaps I should rack off one more time,but I am nervous
about the addition of too much sulphite,since my wife does suffer from
headaches after drinking a couple of glasses of commercial red
wine,but never with my own reds.
Michael
P.S.I did an experiment recently to see whether one needs to stir in
added sulphite or just add it and let it disperse.This was for cider
making,but it is very relevant here.
I took two water filled 5 litre glass demijohns,and added a teaspoon
(5ml) of water soluble Watermans ink (yes,I still have some and use it
for writing now and again).This is the ratio of volumes that I use
when adding sulphite.Due to gravity of the fall (a couple of
centimetres),the ink gained velocity and formed a jet which sank to
the bottom.A few stirs on one of the demijohns gave a completely
uniform colour. In the unstirred demijohn,however, the colouring
reached a uniform colour in the lower third of the vessel only ,and
clear water still in the upper two thirds even after a few hours.Now a
couple of months after doing the experiment,the unstirred demijohn is
showing very very slow dispersion,with the blue colouring only just up
to half way.My feeling is that it would take at least a year(or
two)before the colouring became uniform.
Of course,if there was a slow fermentation going on the dispersion
would speed up,but this experiment has proved to me that it is very
necessary to stir in added sulphite for it to be effective in the
total volume.This result surprised me so much that I went around this
years stored wine and gave them each a stir!
My lack of stirring in previous years winemaking may have some bearing
on my problems with the 2006 Regent wine above,although there have
been no suggestion of vinegary taints ever.

In article
>,
michael > wrote:

> On 12 Feb, 03:02, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > I won't argue with you about your experiences. I'm just saying that
> > around 100ppm free SO2 (FSO2), some say less, the wine will give you a
> > headache, and if you are an asthmatic, shove you into an attack.
> >
> > In winemaking
> > In low concentrations SO2 is mostly undetectable in wine, but at over
> > 50ppm, SO2 becomes evident in the nose and taste of
> > wine.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide
> >
> > http://www.winemakermag.com/stories/...should-i-add-c...
> > en-tablets-each-time-i-rack-my-wine-and-how-do-i-measure-the-level-of-sul
> > fite-in-my-wine
> >
> > Additionally, SO2 will bleach your wine, striping out the purple hues in
> > reds, and make whites look like water. This is one of the reasons for
> > using as little as is needed.
> >
> > Not all wine oxidation is mediated by acetobacter, direct molecular
> > oxidation can happen as well. It seems from your statement, that you
> > think you could leave wine in an open pot, and it would be perfectly
> > fine, as long as it had FSO2. This is not the case. You will get
> > spoilage from direct oxidation and aerobic organisms.
> >
> > If you can't taste the difference, there is no need to change your
> > habits.
> >
> > In article
> > >,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Wildbill,
> >
> > > I've never experienced oxidation from racking. As long as there is
> > > free SO2 the wine will not oxidize. I add 50ppm each rack and the wine
> > > is very drinkable. In fact, it's better than any commercial stuff made
> > > from the same quality grapes I use. If Micheal added 30ppm each rack
> > > it would take 10 racks to get to 300ppm. That's assuming no oxygen is
> > > introduced during racking. IOW, it won't even be close to 300ppm and
> > > probably more close to 30ppm at the end.
> >
> > > On Feb 11, 10:44*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> >
> > > > *michael > wrote:
> > > > > On 9 Feb, 11:52, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > > > michael wrote:
> > > > > > > On 9 Feb, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> Wildbilly wrote:
> > > > > > >> > In article
> > > > > > >> > .
> > > > > > >> > com>
> > > > > > >> > ,
> > > > > > >> > michael > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >> >> I have been drinking a 2006 Regent( a European hybrid
> > > > > > >> >> developed
> > > > > > >> >> for
> > > > > > >> >> early ripening in cool climates ) red wine recently and have
> > > > > > >> >> been
> > > > > > >> >> amazed at the difference temperature makes.My mini vineyard
> > > > > > >> >> is in
> > > > > > >> >> Herefordshire,in southern England,and whereas I have been
> > > > > > >> >> making
> > > > > > >> >> some
> > > > > > >> >> excellent dry white wines(as judged by others),I am new to
> > > > > > >> >> red
> > > > > > >> >> wine
> > > > > > >> >> making.
> >
> > > > > > >> >> The year 2006 was very good in England,with all grapes
> > > > > > >> >> ripening
> > > > > > >> >> very
> > > > > > >> >> well,and earlier than usual.I fermented the grapes on the
> > > > > > >> >> skins
> > > > > > >> >> and
> > > > > > >> >> with the grapes natural yeast,and achieved full fermentation
> > > > > > >> >> after 2
> > > > > > >> >> to 3 weeks-the grapes were pressed after 6 days
> > > > > > >> >> maceration.The
> > > > > > >> >> wine
> > > > > > >> >> was matured in gallon glass demijohns for three years,and
> > > > > > >> >> bottled
> > > > > > >> >> recently.I tried the wine in my cool pantry (it has been
> > > > > > >> >> pretty
> > > > > > >> >> cold
> > > > > > >> >> in England this winter),and was a little disappointed.It had
> > > > > > >> >> a
> > > > > > >> >> very
> > > > > > >> >> nice fruity nose but seemed a little tannic.We compared it
> > > > > > >> >> with a
> > > > > > >> >> commercial Australian Cabernet ,and was not convinced that
> > > > > > >> >> mine
> > > > > > >> >> was
> > > > > > >> >> that much inferior.We decided to serve it to our friends at a
> > > > > > >> >> dinner
> > > > > > >> >> party,as English red wine made from English grapes is quite
> > > > > > >> >> unusual.
> >
> > > > > > >> >> The surprise came when I warmed up the wine to about 65For
> > > > > > >> >> room
> > > > > > >> >> temperature.The wine had lost its tannic nature and was very
> > > > > > >> >> good,with
> > > > > > >> >> absolutely no comparison to drinking the wine at 50F.I am
> > > > > > >> >> well
> > > > > > >> >> aware
> > > > > > >> >> that red wine should be drunk at room temperature,but had no
> > > > > > >> >> idea
> > > > > > >> >> that
> > > > > > >> >> its character should change so much;it makes it difficult to
> > > > > > >> >> assess
> > > > > > >> >> wine being stored in a cooler place.
> > > > > > >> >> I would welcome comments
> > > > > > >> >> Michael
> >
> > > > > > >> > Good reds and whites: 14C - 16C
> > > > > > >> > Young fruity reds, rosés, and dry whites: 11C - 12C
> > > > > > >> > Sparkling: 7C - 8C
> > > > > > >> > Dessert Wines: 6C
> >
> > > > > > >> > Chilling a wine, reduces your ability to taste it. Too warm
> > > > > > >> > and it
> > > > > > >> > will
> > > > > > >> > seem flat. Then again, wines are like steaks. No one can tell
> > > > > > >> > you
> > > > > > >> > the
> > > > > > >> > right way to serve it (well done, rare), or what is the best
> > > > > > >> > temp
> > > > > > >> > to
> > > > > > >> > serve wines, for you. Learn the rules, and then you can break
> > > > > > >> > them
> > > > > > >> > ;O)
> >
> > > > > > >> I like your quote at the bottom
> >
> > > > > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the comments.
> > > > > > > I think that my problem with this red wine is that I have got an
> > > > > > > excess of tannin.I thought that it would become more mellow after
> > > > > > > three years in a glass demijohn,but although it has coated the
> > > > > > > glass
> > > > > > > with a thin red deposit,there has been no deposit in the bottom
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > demijohn.The grapes were very ripe when picked (Brix 18.5 which
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > the best we get in our cool climate),but possibly a little low on
> > > > > > > acid.The wine has a good fruity nose,its colour is deep red and
> > > > > > > clear,but that is about the best one can say-the taste gets
> > > > > > > better on
> > > > > > > the second or third glass,but presumably all wines do due to the
> > > > > > > alcohol kicking in.It is somewhat better than a supermarket wine
> > > > > > > at 8
> > > > > > > dollars a bottle,my friends at a recent dinner party liked it and
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > daughter gives it 9/10.However,I feel that I need more
> > > > > > > understanding
> > > > > > > of what I perceive to be wrong,in order to improve it.
> > > > > > > Michael
> >
> > > > > > Try this:
> >
> > > > > > Next time you open a bottle, pour out a glass and drink it and save
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > rest
> > > > > > in the opened bottle until the next day. *Test to see how the
> > > > > > remaining
> > > > > > wine in the bottle taste the next day - or two days. *If it is a
> > > > > > lot
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > taste to you, then your wine will improve with age - it just needs
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > time.
> >
> > > > > > Have you checked out the site:
> >
> > > > > >http://www.winepress.us/
> >
> > > > > > There are a LOT of us there and it is very active with a lot of
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > topics
> > > > > > and opinions. *I am known as PEL on the site. *You can also post
> > > > > > pictures
> > > > > > which sometimes help a lot in the conversations. *They have been
> > > > > > having
> > > > > > problems with their server but it has been fairly stable recently.
> >
> > > > > > Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > > > Yes,it does get a little better when left in an opened bottle for a
> > > > > day or so.The wine is already 3 years old,but perhaps it is not
> > > > > maturing very fast in glass.What surprises me is that I do not get a
> > > > > tannin deposit on the bottom of the glass demijohn.That is why I have
> > > > > not deemed it necessary to rack it-all I see is a deposit on the
> > > > > inside of the glass.Perhaps red wine does need more air (which it
> > > > > would get if maturing in oak),so perhaps I will rack some more to
> > > > > introduce some oxygen to help with maturation.I assume that I add a
> > > > > small amount of sulphite(30ppm) on each racking,though I thought that
> > > > > red wine (unlike white wine)does not need it due to its tannin .
> > > > > Thanks again
> > > > > Michael
> >
> > > > All wines need SO2, unless you're making vinegar (little is needed
> > > > below
> > > > pH3). 30ppm is about the max. free SO2 that you want. If you add 30ppm
> > > > to each racking, the wine will be undrinkable. Polymerization of
> > > > tannins
> > > > is a slow oxidation. Exposure to the air is will lead to rapid
> > > > oxidation
> > > > ---> acetic acid ---> acetaldehyde ---> big waste of time, effort,
> > > > money.
> > > > --
> > > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin...
> > > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
> >
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for all of your comments.
> My general summary of what I have learned is that maturation in glass
> is a slower process than in oak where the barrels let air in slowly.
The oxygen comes in with the topping wines. The water and ethanol
evaporate out of the barrel via the veins (phloem and xylem) in the wood.

> My
> observation that the taste is a little better from a half-filled
> bottle the day after opening does suggest that some oxidation at this
> stage does help the flavour.
The procedure is called "breathing" the wine. Remove half a glass of red
wine from the bottle to (thus increasing the surface area of the wine)
and let the bottle stand, without the cork, for 2 to 4 hours. There may
be an interaction between the air and the wine, and there is a
de-gassing of compounds that mask the flavor and smell of the wine.
Most dry table wines will retain their quality for about 12 hours, and
then start to deteriorate.
> This particular vintage was rather low on
> acid,and I am also wondering if this could effect the overlying tannic
> taste.
> I do rack my red wine once after fermentation (say in November),when I
> add 30ppm, and then once again after about another six months,adding a
> further 30ppm.I then leave it for a couple of years or so,though do
> sample a tiny amount from time to time,which does let in a small
> amount of air.Perhaps I should rack off one more time,but I am nervous
> about the addition of too much sulphite,since my wife does suffer from
> headaches after drinking a couple of glasses of commercial red
> wine,but never with my own reds.
> Michael
> P.S.I did an experiment recently to see whether one needs to stir in
> added sulphite or just add it and let it disperse.This was for cider
> making,but it is very relevant here.
> I took two water filled 5 litre glass demijohns,and added a teaspoon
> (5ml) of water soluble Watermans ink (yes,I still have some and use it
> for writing now and again).This is the ratio of volumes that I use
> when adding sulphite.Due to gravity of the fall (a couple of
> centimetres),the ink gained velocity and formed a jet which sank to
> the bottom.A few stirs on one of the demijohns gave a completely
> uniform colour. In the unstirred demijohn,however, the colouring
> reached a uniform colour in the lower third of the vessel only ,and
> clear water still in the upper two thirds even after a few hours.Now a
> couple of months after doing the experiment,the unstirred demijohn is
> showing very very slow dispersion,with the blue colouring only just up
> to half way.My feeling is that it would take at least a year(or
> two)before the colouring became uniform.
> Of course,if there was a slow fermentation going on the dispersion
> would speed up,but this experiment has proved to me that it is very
> necessary to stir in added sulphite for it to be effective in the
> total volume.This result surprised me so much that I went around this
> years stored wine and gave them each a stir!
> My lack of stirring in previous years winemaking may have some bearing
> on my problems with the 2006 Regent wine above,although there have
> been no suggestion of vinegary taints ever.

Good experiment :O)
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines