Hi, Im hoping somebody can point me in the right direction.

I am looking for a floating lid fermenter to store wine after most
of the lee's has been racked. Does anyone have any experience with
these? What should I look for? What is the pros and cons?

I am really looking for something simpler than a kegging system to
draw wine from over time (less than 6 months).

What should I be looking for online? Or does anybody in the Ontario
(416/905) area carry something?

Thanks.

"monkeybug" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, Im hoping somebody can point me in the right direction.
>
> I am looking for a floating lid fermenter to store wine after most
> of the lee's has been racked. Does anyone have any experience with
> these? What should I look for? What is the pros and cons?
>
> I am really looking for something simpler than a kegging system to
> draw wine from over time (less than 6 months).
>
I have experience in a commercial winery with floating lids up to 15000
litre tanks.
These things are very heavy and a real bother to set up. You need a whinch
to raise and lower the lids and either an arch over the tank or a bolt in
the ceiling to hold the weight of the lid ( the membrane on the lid cannot
support the lid weight alone). The lids are usually sealed to the sides of
the tanks using a rubber membrane that looks like bike tube and inflates in
much the same manner. They work well when being installed clean and fresh
on a newly filled tanks but on active tanks with sticky sides or dirty
membranes the tube sticks to the tank walls and never pulls cleanly up or
down. While in theory it sounds nice it's a lot easier effort wise just to
use N2/CO2 gas to purge the head space of O2 and refresh it every so often.

I never found that floating is the correct term as the lid works best if
suspended just above the liquid by a 1/4 inch or so. It's very hard to get
inflate the membrane and not ooze juice on top of the lid if you have
contact.

For these large tanks thinkof the fiasco of having some tank gas pressure
causing the membrane to ooze wine on top of the lid where fruit flies are
gathering and mold is starting to grow and it's 6 feet down the side of the
tank! You have to clean the mess off before it breaches the membrane and you
can't raise the lid to do it.

"J F" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>>
> I have experience in a commercial winery with floating lids up to 15000
> litre tanks.

All I have is a 200 liter tank, but I will echo all your complaints (well,
OK I don't need a ceiling mounted winch for mine).

Nice idea in theory, but this fall when it came time to protecting my must
as fermentation was dying down, I just resorted to some heavy plastic
sheeting. I doubt if I'll ever use the lid again.

Brian

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "J F" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> >>
> > I have experience in a commercial winery with floating lids up to 15000
> > litre tanks.
>
> All I have is a 200 liter tank, but I will echo all your complaints (well,
> OK I don't need a ceiling mounted winch for mine).
>
> Nice idea in theory, but this fall when it came time to protecting my must
> as fermentation was dying down, I just resorted to some heavy plastic
> sheeting. I doubt if I'll ever use the lid again.
>
Did I mention you should check the membrane air prerssure frequenlty to make
sure the seal still exists? Thay have habit of slowly leaking even if the
membrane is not ruptured.

Thanks for the opinions. I was looking for something in the 10-20
gallon range. An alternative to having "break down" the wine into
smaller containers once the original container is opened.

The "floating lids" sound like more trouble than they are worth. I
think I might investigate kegging with Nitrogen a little more closely.



On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:52:47 -0400, "J F" > wrote:

>
>"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "J F" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> >
>> >>
>> > I have experience in a commercial winery with floating lids up to 15000
>> > litre tanks.
>>
>> All I have is a 200 liter tank, but I will echo all your complaints (well,
>> OK I don't need a ceiling mounted winch for mine).
>>
>> Nice idea in theory, but this fall when it came time to protecting my must
>> as fermentation was dying down, I just resorted to some heavy plastic
>> sheeting. I doubt if I'll ever use the lid again.
>>
>Did I mention you should check the membrane air prerssure frequenlty to make
>sure the seal still exists? Thay have habit of slowly leaking even if the
>membrane is not ruptured.
>

I have two 200 Liters variable volume SS tank and I really love them.
No trouble with small size. But I agree that big tank could cause
more problem because of the weigth of the lid but it is not the case
with mine. I find them to be really handy for blending and no worry
for top up with the floating lid. I use them to ferment my red and to
aged blended wines. No complain so far.

Séb



monkeybug > wrote in message >. ..
> Thanks for the opinions. I was looking for something in the 10-20
> gallon range. An alternative to having "break down" the wine into
> smaller containers once the original container is opened.
>
> The "floating lids" sound like more trouble than they are worth. I
> think I might investigate kegging with Nitrogen a little more closely.

JF,

I'll weigh in on this. I think your getting extremely misleading
advise. I have VC tanks also and they're "a dream" to use. DON'T rely
on gas to keep the oxygen off the wine if you can physically reduce
it. VC tanks if used right do the job as good if not better than any
container I've used. You do have to watch the air at the beginning
just to make sure it's set up correctly BUT once you connect all the
fittings snuggly you shouldn't have a problem. As far as the cover
being too heavy, it's not the cover, there should be multiple "hooks
on the lid and ALL the hooks should be supported by ropes. If there is
1 rope for a big lid then either the lid was manufactured wrong or
someone forgot to attach a rope to all the hooks. It doesn't take long
to take all the ropes and make them into a same length basket with 1
rope coming up from there to attach to the ceiling if that needs to be
done.


Bob

"J F" > wrote in message >...
> "monkeybug" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi, Im hoping somebody can point me in the right direction.
> >
> > I am looking for a floating lid fermenter to store wine after most
> > of the lee's has been racked. Does anyone have any experience with
> > these? What should I look for? What is the pros and cons?
> >
> > I am really looking for something simpler than a kegging system to
> > draw wine from over time (less than 6 months).
> >
> I have experience in a commercial winery with floating lids up to 15000
> litre tanks.
> These things are very heavy and a real bother to set up. You need a whinch
> to raise and lower the lids and either an arch over the tank or a bolt in
> the ceiling to hold the weight of the lid ( the membrane on the lid cannot
> support the lid weight alone). The lids are usually sealed to the sides of
> the tanks using a rubber membrane that looks like bike tube and inflates in
> much the same manner. They work well when being installed clean and fresh
> on a newly filled tanks but on active tanks with sticky sides or dirty
> membranes the tube sticks to the tank walls and never pulls cleanly up or
> down. While in theory it sounds nice it's a lot easier effort wise just to
> use N2/CO2 gas to purge the head space of O2 and refresh it every so often.
>
> I never found that floating is the correct term as the lid works best if
> suspended just above the liquid by a 1/4 inch or so. It's very hard to get
> inflate the membrane and not ooze juice on top of the lid if you have
> contact.
>
> For these large tanks thinkof the fiasco of having some tank gas pressure
> causing the membrane to ooze wine on top of the lid where fruit flies are
> gathering and mold is starting to grow and it's 6 feet down the side of the
> tank! You have to clean the mess off before it breaches the membrane and you
> can't raise the lid to do it.

"bob" > wrote in message
> I'll weigh in on this. I think your getting extremely misleading
> advise.
Experience is not getting advice. Did you mean giving advice?

>I have VC tanks also and they're "a dream" to use. DON'T rely
> on gas to keep the oxygen off the wine if you can physically reduce
> it. VC tanks if used right do the job as good if not better than any
> container I've used. You do have to watch the air at the beginning
> just to make sure it's set up correctly BUT once you connect all the
> fittings snuggly you shouldn't have a problem.

My experience isn't with small home versions it's full sized industrial
tanks 22 feet high and upto 10 feet in diameter. The prefered method was
always a solid tank filled to capacity; the floating lids tanks were more
show items for the tour groups than primary use tanks.
Where I worked the tank lids are steel, bolt clamped to the steel tank with
an inch thick rubber gasket. The head space-if existing- was always purged
with N2/CO2 through a gas fitting and bleeder valve.

> As far as the cover
> being too heavy, it's not the cover, there should be multiple "hooks
> on the lid and ALL the hooks should be supported by ropes. If there is
> 1 rope for a big lid then either the lid was manufactured wrong or
> someone forgot to attach a rope to all the hooks. It doesn't take long
> to take all the ropes and make them into a same length basket with 1
> rope coming up from there to attach to the ceiling if that needs to be
> done.
A 10 foot diameter lid made of stainless steel quite massive and the four
point attachment system used close to 200 linear feet of rope to suport one
lid.
You could have used a few less ropes but the redunancy is to prevent having
to lift several hundred pounds of steel lid off the bottom of a full tank.
Come to think of one of the smaller 7000 litre tanks did suffer this fate
during the first year of setting up the tanks. Moral of the storey: unless
the ropes are tied off securley don't answer your cell phone.
To raise of lower a lid you still needed several people or a winch. Not once
did a tank lid pull cleanly after it had been sitting on a tank. The rubber
sticks to the steel surface too well.

Séb,
How long have you been using it? I am wondering about long term
maintenance. This is actually for someone else and the less
maintenance, the better.

Also, where did you get it from? Any examples online?



On 28 Oct 2004 13:02:17 -0700, (seb) wrote:

>I have two 200 Liters variable volume SS tank and I really love them.
>No trouble with small size. But I agree that big tank could cause
>more problem because of the weigth of the lid but it is not the case
>with mine. I find them to be really handy for blending and no worry
>for top up with the floating lid. I use them to ferment my red and to
>aged blended wines. No complain so far.
>
>Séb
>
>
>
>monkeybug > wrote in message >. ..
>> Thanks for the opinions. I was looking for something in the 10-20
>> gallon range. An alternative to having "break down" the wine into
>> smaller containers once the original container is opened.
>>
>> The "floating lids" sound like more trouble than they are worth. I
>> think I might investigate kegging with Nitrogen a little more closely.

monkeybug > wrote in message >. ..
> Séb,
> How long have you been using it? I am wondering about long term
> maintenance. This is actually for someone else and the less
> maintenance, the better.
>
> Also, where did you get it from? Any examples online?


I use these two 200 VC tank since only two years now. The only thing
I can see for long term maintenance is that you will have to buy
replacement air tube to avoid any problem. SS is the best material
for winemaking and is so easy to clean. Don't use sulphite to avoid
damage the surface. 304 alloy SS will pit if expose to sulphite.
Some higher quality tank are made of 316 alloy but they are pricey. A
small VC SS tank is very handy as you can put various amount of wine
without the need to top up, they are light, have large opening so you
can ferment your red in it and the white of course. They are really
great tools for blending and any ratio you want. However there are
many different size of tank for the same volume and different quality
and features that you have to take care. Also check the valve
diameter, some got 1/2" while others are 1" and more. I pick one with
1" valve as it fit my pump requirement.

I buy these two tanks from Kevin Watson in Niagara. Kevin is really
nice and have good price on these small tank. http://www.watsons.ca/

For more informations on SS VC tank, check this link
http://www.stpats.com/Fermenters.htm

Hope this help,
Séb