Hello,

I am new to the winemaking world and my latest batch of win is begining to
concern me. I innocullated 38L of fresh California Chardonnay juice 8 days
ago with LALVIN CY3079 bacteria and over the eight days the PH has been
dropping. As well, there is a good size froth at the top of the primary
fermentor. The fermentation itself has been very steady and the temperature
has been maintained at a steady 20 degrees Celcius.

I did several tests with the juice prior to innoculation and everything
looked good... PH 3.4, TA between 6-7, and no (or just traces of) SO2. Over
the last week the PH has dropped to 2.8 and the TA is about 10. I was hoping
to run MLF on the batch post primary fermation, but with such a low PH I am
not sure it is possible. My questions a Is this normal? Is it the CO2
that is causing the low PH? Or what is causing the PH to drop? And should I
do something to increase the PH? Like I already stated I am new at this so I
would appreacite any help....And please excuse my ignorance. Also, let me
know if additonal information is needed...

Thanks in advance,
Shawn

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks a lot Tom....
>
> As for my equipment.. The PH meter is brand new and according to all the
> calibration/test fluids (4 and 7) the readings are accurate. However, the
> meter only reads too one decimal point... Now I am thinking of returning
> it
> and maybe getting something a bit more accurate.

For winemaking you really need to go out to 2 digits beyond the decimal
point.

> Okay...So, here is my plan of attack...Please let me know if I am doing
> anything drastically wrong...

If you plan to go into barrel with this wine, why not _ferment_ in barrel?
The wine will integrate better with the wood that way. BTW, I wouldn't use
American oak on a white wine. I'm not saying that it's a mistake, but I
prefer not to use American oak on Burgundian varietals.

Everything else looks OK. If you really do have a low pH problem you can
address that later, before cold stabilizing the wine.

Tom S

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks a lot Tom....
>
> As for my equipment.. The PH meter is brand new and according to all the
> calibration/test fluids (4 and 7) the readings are accurate. However, the
> meter only reads too one decimal point... Now I am thinking of returning
> it
> and maybe getting something a bit more accurate.

For winemaking you really need to go out to 2 digits beyond the decimal
point.

> Okay...So, here is my plan of attack...Please let me know if I am doing
> anything drastically wrong...

If you plan to go into barrel with this wine, why not _ferment_ in barrel?
The wine will integrate better with the wood that way. BTW, I wouldn't use
American oak on a white wine. I'm not saying that it's a mistake, but I
prefer not to use American oak on Burgundian varietals.

Everything else looks OK. If you really do have a low pH problem you can
address that later, before cold stabilizing the wine.

Tom S

Thanks again Tom....

I hear ya on the PH meter... I am going to get something a bit more
accurate...

As for the Oak Barrel... I was overuled by the boss on this one... My
girlfirend prefers American Oak, over French... Personally, I much prefer
French Oak because of the "sexyness" it adds to Chardonnay, rather then the
more pronouced "buttery oak" taste I find A. Oak attributes to wine... The
reason I didn't ferment in the barrel was because the barrel is small and
new and with the MLF the time in the barrel could have lasted longer than I
would have wanted, resulting in "Eau de Chene" rather than an Oaked
Chadonnay. After the Chardonnay I will use the barrel for aging some
Australian Shiraz which I feel is a better use of the A. Oak. We'll se how
the batch goes and if the Chardonnay is successful I a thinking of trying my
next batch with Canadian Oak, which is suppose impart characterics of both
American Oak and French Oak...

One more question... Why would I cold stabilize (not that its a problem in
my climate?) Do I need to cold stabilize if I don't add any buffers?

Cheers,

Shawn

"Tom S" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Inferno" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks a lot Tom....
> >
> > As for my equipment.. The PH meter is brand new and according to all the
> > calibration/test fluids (4 and 7) the readings are accurate. However,
the
> > meter only reads too one decimal point... Now I am thinking of returning
> > it
> > and maybe getting something a bit more accurate.
>
> For winemaking you really need to go out to 2 digits beyond the decimal
> point.
>
> > Okay...So, here is my plan of attack...Please let me know if I am doing
> > anything drastically wrong...
>
> If you plan to go into barrel with this wine, why not _ferment_ in barrel?
> The wine will integrate better with the wood that way. BTW, I wouldn't
use
> American oak on a white wine. I'm not saying that it's a mistake, but I
> prefer not to use American oak on Burgundian varietals.
>
> Everything else looks OK. If you really do have a low pH problem you can
> address that later, before cold stabilizing the wine.
>
> Tom S
>
>

Thanks again Tom....

I hear ya on the PH meter... I am going to get something a bit more
accurate...

As for the Oak Barrel... I was overuled by the boss on this one... My
girlfirend prefers American Oak, over French... Personally, I much prefer
French Oak because of the "sexyness" it adds to Chardonnay, rather then the
more pronouced "buttery oak" taste I find A. Oak attributes to wine... The
reason I didn't ferment in the barrel was because the barrel is small and
new and with the MLF the time in the barrel could have lasted longer than I
would have wanted, resulting in "Eau de Chene" rather than an Oaked
Chadonnay. After the Chardonnay I will use the barrel for aging some
Australian Shiraz which I feel is a better use of the A. Oak. We'll se how
the batch goes and if the Chardonnay is successful I a thinking of trying my
next batch with Canadian Oak, which is suppose impart characterics of both
American Oak and French Oak...

One more question... Why would I cold stabilize (not that its a problem in
my climate?) Do I need to cold stabilize if I don't add any buffers?

Cheers,

Shawn

"Tom S" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Inferno" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks a lot Tom....
> >
> > As for my equipment.. The PH meter is brand new and according to all the
> > calibration/test fluids (4 and 7) the readings are accurate. However,
the
> > meter only reads too one decimal point... Now I am thinking of returning
> > it
> > and maybe getting something a bit more accurate.
>
> For winemaking you really need to go out to 2 digits beyond the decimal
> point.
>
> > Okay...So, here is my plan of attack...Please let me know if I am doing
> > anything drastically wrong...
>
> If you plan to go into barrel with this wine, why not _ferment_ in barrel?
> The wine will integrate better with the wood that way. BTW, I wouldn't
use
> American oak on a white wine. I'm not saying that it's a mistake, but I
> prefer not to use American oak on Burgundian varietals.
>
> Everything else looks OK. If you really do have a low pH problem you can
> address that later, before cold stabilizing the wine.
>
> Tom S
>
>

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks again Tom....
>
> I hear ya on the PH meter... I am going to get something a bit more
> accurate...
>
> As for the Oak Barrel... I was overuled by the boss on this one... My
> girlfirend prefers American Oak, over French... Personally, I much prefer
> French Oak because of the "sexyness" it adds to Chardonnay, rather then
the
> more pronouced "buttery oak" taste I find A. Oak attributes to wine... The
> reason I didn't ferment in the barrel was because the barrel is small and
> new and with the MLF the time in the barrel could have lasted longer than
I
> would have wanted, resulting in "Eau de Chene" rather than an Oaked
> Chadonnay. After the Chardonnay I will use the barrel for aging some
> Australian Shiraz which I feel is a better use of the A. Oak. We'll se how
> the batch goes and if the Chardonnay is successful I a thinking of trying
my
> next batch with Canadian Oak, which is suppose impart characterics of both
> American Oak and French Oak...
>
> One more question... Why would I cold stabilize (not that its a problem in
> my climate?) Do I need to cold stabilize if I don't add any buffers?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shawn

Shawn,
New grape wine contains excessive quantities of potassium bitartrate. The
tartrate can precipitate out as crystals or hazes when the wine is chilled,
so practically all white and blush grape wines require cold stabilization
before bottling.
More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt15.html
Good luck with your Chardonnay.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks again Tom....
>
> I hear ya on the PH meter... I am going to get something a bit more
> accurate...
>
> As for the Oak Barrel... I was overuled by the boss on this one... My
> girlfirend prefers American Oak, over French... Personally, I much prefer
> French Oak because of the "sexyness" it adds to Chardonnay, rather then
the
> more pronouced "buttery oak" taste I find A. Oak attributes to wine... The
> reason I didn't ferment in the barrel was because the barrel is small and
> new and with the MLF the time in the barrel could have lasted longer than
I
> would have wanted, resulting in "Eau de Chene" rather than an Oaked
> Chadonnay. After the Chardonnay I will use the barrel for aging some
> Australian Shiraz which I feel is a better use of the A. Oak. We'll se how
> the batch goes and if the Chardonnay is successful I a thinking of trying
my
> next batch with Canadian Oak, which is suppose impart characterics of both
> American Oak and French Oak...
>
> One more question... Why would I cold stabilize (not that its a problem in
> my climate?) Do I need to cold stabilize if I don't add any buffers?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shawn

Shawn,
New grape wine contains excessive quantities of potassium bitartrate. The
tartrate can precipitate out as crystals or hazes when the wine is chilled,
so practically all white and blush grape wines require cold stabilization
before bottling.
More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt15.html
Good luck with your Chardonnay.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

Hello,

Thanks! I read the recommended article and to be honest I am still
confused.. If any one can give me a little personal explination on cold
stabilization I would greatly appreciate it...

Cheers,

Shawn

"Lum" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Inferno" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks again Tom....
> >
> > I hear ya on the PH meter... I am going to get something a bit more
> > accurate...
> >
> > As for the Oak Barrel... I was overuled by the boss on this one... My
> > girlfirend prefers American Oak, over French... Personally, I much
prefer
> > French Oak because of the "sexyness" it adds to Chardonnay, rather then
> the
> > more pronouced "buttery oak" taste I find A. Oak attributes to wine...
The
> > reason I didn't ferment in the barrel was because the barrel is small
and
> > new and with the MLF the time in the barrel could have lasted longer
than
> I
> > would have wanted, resulting in "Eau de Chene" rather than an Oaked
> > Chadonnay. After the Chardonnay I will use the barrel for aging some
> > Australian Shiraz which I feel is a better use of the A. Oak. We'll se
how
> > the batch goes and if the Chardonnay is successful I a thinking of
trying
> my
> > next batch with Canadian Oak, which is suppose impart characterics of
both
> > American Oak and French Oak...
> >
> > One more question... Why would I cold stabilize (not that its a problem
in
> > my climate?) Do I need to cold stabilize if I don't add any buffers?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Shawn
>
> Shawn,
> New grape wine contains excessive quantities of potassium bitartrate. The
> tartrate can precipitate out as crystals or hazes when the wine is
chilled,
> so practically all white and blush grape wines require cold stabilization
> before bottling.
> More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt15.html
> Good luck with your Chardonnay.
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
>
>

Hello,

Thanks! I read the recommended article and to be honest I am still
confused.. If any one can give me a little personal explination on cold
stabilization I would greatly appreciate it...

Cheers,

Shawn

"Lum" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Inferno" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks again Tom....
> >
> > I hear ya on the PH meter... I am going to get something a bit more
> > accurate...
> >
> > As for the Oak Barrel... I was overuled by the boss on this one... My
> > girlfirend prefers American Oak, over French... Personally, I much
prefer
> > French Oak because of the "sexyness" it adds to Chardonnay, rather then
> the
> > more pronouced "buttery oak" taste I find A. Oak attributes to wine...
The
> > reason I didn't ferment in the barrel was because the barrel is small
and
> > new and with the MLF the time in the barrel could have lasted longer
than
> I
> > would have wanted, resulting in "Eau de Chene" rather than an Oaked
> > Chadonnay. After the Chardonnay I will use the barrel for aging some
> > Australian Shiraz which I feel is a better use of the A. Oak. We'll se
how
> > the batch goes and if the Chardonnay is successful I a thinking of
trying
> my
> > next batch with Canadian Oak, which is suppose impart characterics of
both
> > American Oak and French Oak...
> >
> > One more question... Why would I cold stabilize (not that its a problem
in
> > my climate?) Do I need to cold stabilize if I don't add any buffers?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Shawn
>
> Shawn,
> New grape wine contains excessive quantities of potassium bitartrate. The
> tartrate can precipitate out as crystals or hazes when the wine is
chilled,
> so practically all white and blush grape wines require cold stabilization
> before bottling.
> More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt15.html
> Good luck with your Chardonnay.
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
>
>

Shawn - Lum's book pretty well explains why K bitartrate crystals form. The
wine contains more of this salt than it can hold at a given temperature so
it precipitates out. The hybrid grapes I grow are high in acid and
potassium. Cold stabilization is a very useful way to rid the wine of
excess acid. After fermentation is finished I move the wine to a chest
freezer that is equipped with an external thermostat. I set the temperature
to 30F. At this reduced temperature potassium bitartrate is less soluble
than at normal cellar temperature and it precipitates. Then more tartaric
acid combines with remaining potassium to form more potassium bitartrate and
it precipitates. This will continue until the wine can hold the amount of
potassium bitartrate that is present or until there in no more potassium
left to form excess potassium bitartrate. This is why it's helpful to cold
condition wine for one or two weeks to allow the process to go to
completion.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> Thanks! I read the recommended article and to be honest I am still
> confused.. If any one can give me a little personal explination on cold
> stabilization I would greatly appreciate it...

Shawn - Lum's book pretty well explains why K bitartrate crystals form. The
wine contains more of this salt than it can hold at a given temperature so
it precipitates out. The hybrid grapes I grow are high in acid and
potassium. Cold stabilization is a very useful way to rid the wine of
excess acid. After fermentation is finished I move the wine to a chest
freezer that is equipped with an external thermostat. I set the temperature
to 30F. At this reduced temperature potassium bitartrate is less soluble
than at normal cellar temperature and it precipitates. Then more tartaric
acid combines with remaining potassium to form more potassium bitartrate and
it precipitates. This will continue until the wine can hold the amount of
potassium bitartrate that is present or until there in no more potassium
left to form excess potassium bitartrate. This is why it's helpful to cold
condition wine for one or two weeks to allow the process to go to
completion.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> Thanks! I read the recommended article and to be honest I am still
> confused.. If any one can give me a little personal explination on cold
> stabilization I would greatly appreciate it...

Shawn - Lum's book pretty well explains why K bitartrate crystals form. The
wine contains more of this salt than it can hold at a given temperature so
it precipitates out. The hybrid grapes I grow are high in acid and
potassium. Cold stabilization is a very useful way to rid the wine of
excess acid. After fermentation is finished I move the wine to a chest
freezer that is equipped with an external thermostat. I set the temperature
to 30F. At this reduced temperature potassium bitartrate is less soluble
than at normal cellar temperature and it precipitates. Then more tartaric
acid combines with remaining potassium to form more potassium bitartrate and
it precipitates. This will continue until the wine can hold the amount of
potassium bitartrate that is present or until there in no more potassium
left to form excess potassium bitartrate. This is why it's helpful to cold
condition wine for one or two weeks to allow the process to go to
completion.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> Thanks! I read the recommended article and to be honest I am still
> confused.. If any one can give me a little personal explination on cold
> stabilization I would greatly appreciate it...

Thanks Bill..
I really appreaciate all the help I've been receiving over the last few
days...

Okay.. I understand the princinple, however, the confusion is in the
practicle application. So, here is a what I will attempt... Once the MLF is
done, I will sulfite the wine, rack it to a barrel for aging, when that is
done I will rack it to a carboy and cold stabilize it for one to two weeks;
then bottle,
With that said here are my questions:
1- Are there any problems with my process?
2- How do I know the cold stabilizing process it done? Will the wine be
entirely clear?
3- I was thinking I could cold stabilize in my cold room...However, it
can get as cold as 14F, is this problem?

Thanks again and I look forward to your reply,

Shawn


"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> Shawn - Lum's book pretty well explains why K bitartrate crystals form.
The
> wine contains more of this salt than it can hold at a given temperature so
> it precipitates out. The hybrid grapes I grow are high in acid and
> potassium. Cold stabilization is a very useful way to rid the wine of
> excess acid. After fermentation is finished I move the wine to a chest
> freezer that is equipped with an external thermostat. I set the
temperature
> to 30F. At this reduced temperature potassium bitartrate is less soluble
> than at normal cellar temperature and it precipitates. Then more tartaric
> acid combines with remaining potassium to form more potassium bitartrate
and
> it precipitates. This will continue until the wine can hold the amount of
> potassium bitartrate that is present or until there in no more potassium
> left to form excess potassium bitartrate. This is why it's helpful to
cold
> condition wine for one or two weeks to allow the process to go to
> completion.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
> "Inferno" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello,
> >
> > Thanks! I read the recommended article and to be honest I am still
> > confused.. If any one can give me a little personal explination on cold
> > stabilization I would greatly appreciate it...
>
>

Thanks Bill..
I really appreaciate all the help I've been receiving over the last few
days...

Okay.. I understand the princinple, however, the confusion is in the
practicle application. So, here is a what I will attempt... Once the MLF is
done, I will sulfite the wine, rack it to a barrel for aging, when that is
done I will rack it to a carboy and cold stabilize it for one to two weeks;
then bottle,
With that said here are my questions:
1- Are there any problems with my process?
2- How do I know the cold stabilizing process it done? Will the wine be
entirely clear?
3- I was thinking I could cold stabilize in my cold room...However, it
can get as cold as 14F, is this problem?

Thanks again and I look forward to your reply,

Shawn


"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> Shawn - Lum's book pretty well explains why K bitartrate crystals form.
The
> wine contains more of this salt than it can hold at a given temperature so
> it precipitates out. The hybrid grapes I grow are high in acid and
> potassium. Cold stabilization is a very useful way to rid the wine of
> excess acid. After fermentation is finished I move the wine to a chest
> freezer that is equipped with an external thermostat. I set the
temperature
> to 30F. At this reduced temperature potassium bitartrate is less soluble
> than at normal cellar temperature and it precipitates. Then more tartaric
> acid combines with remaining potassium to form more potassium bitartrate
and
> it precipitates. This will continue until the wine can hold the amount of
> potassium bitartrate that is present or until there in no more potassium
> left to form excess potassium bitartrate. This is why it's helpful to
cold
> condition wine for one or two weeks to allow the process to go to
> completion.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
> "Inferno" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello,
> >
> > Thanks! I read the recommended article and to be honest I am still
> > confused.. If any one can give me a little personal explination on cold
> > stabilization I would greatly appreciate it...
>
>

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Okay.. I understand the princinple, however, the confusion is in the
> practical application. So, here is a what I will attempt... Once the MLF
> is
> done, I will sulfite the wine, rack it to a barrel for aging, when that is
> done I will rack it to a carboy and cold stabilize it for one to two
> weeks;
> then bottle,
> With that said here are my questions:
> 1- Are there any problems with my process?

Not problems, per se, but fining the wine just prior to cold stabilization
would be a good idea.

> 2- How do I know the cold stabilizing process it done? Will the wine be
> entirely clear?

The bottom of the carboy will be covered with crystals.

> 3- I was thinking I could cold stabilize in my cold room...However, it
> can get as cold as 14F, is this a problem?

Yes. You'll lose glass carboys (and wine) if the wine freezes. About 29°F
is as low as you want to go.

Tom S

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Okay.. I understand the princinple, however, the confusion is in the
> practical application. So, here is a what I will attempt... Once the MLF
> is
> done, I will sulfite the wine, rack it to a barrel for aging, when that is
> done I will rack it to a carboy and cold stabilize it for one to two
> weeks;
> then bottle,
> With that said here are my questions:
> 1- Are there any problems with my process?

Not problems, per se, but fining the wine just prior to cold stabilization
would be a good idea.

> 2- How do I know the cold stabilizing process it done? Will the wine be
> entirely clear?

The bottom of the carboy will be covered with crystals.

> 3- I was thinking I could cold stabilize in my cold room...However, it
> can get as cold as 14F, is this a problem?

Yes. You'll lose glass carboys (and wine) if the wine freezes. About 29°F
is as low as you want to go.

Tom S

"Inferno" > wrote in message
...
> Okay.. I understand the princinple, however, the confusion is in the
> practical application. So, here is a what I will attempt... Once the MLF
> is
> done, I will sulfite the wine, rack it to a barrel for aging, when that is
> done I will rack it to a carboy and cold stabilize it for one to two
> weeks;
> then bottle,
> With that said here are my questions:
> 1- Are there any problems with my process?

Not problems, per se, but fining the wine just prior to cold stabilization
would be a good idea.

> 2- How do I know the cold stabilizing process it done? Will the wine be
> entirely clear?

The bottom of the carboy will be covered with crystals.

> 3- I was thinking I could cold stabilize in my cold room...However, it
> can get as cold as 14F, is this a problem?

Yes. You'll lose glass carboys (and wine) if the wine freezes. About 29°F
is as low as you want to go.

Tom S