Before I go off on my problems...I would like to wish everyone a Merry Xmas
and a healthy and prosperous new year!! Thanks again everyone for your
advice...It has been invaluable...

Okay onto my issues...

Well, I have hit a dead end trying to resolve the low PH issue in my
Chardonnay. Currently, the PH is 2.7 with a TA around 12 g/L and I am lost
on how to raise the PH and lower the TA... I am not too worried (only mildly
concerned) about just leaving it the primary fermentor, as I have been told
the low PH will inhibit "spoilage" bacteria... Tom, suggested that I use
Potassium Carbonate, which appears to be the best/only solution, however,
not a single store in my area carries it ( and some have never even heard of
it...)
Does anyone know a place on Canada or the US, were I can get it ASAP?Are
their any other options? One shop that I spoke to had a PH raising solution
of Potassium Carbonate, Glycerol and Potassium Sorbate, but I think this
solution may have detrimental effects when I run a MLF after the PH is
fixed?

So, what should I do in the meantime? Should I rack the wine, or just leave
it in the primary?

Thanks in advance,

Shawn

"Inferno" > wrote in message
. ..
> Does anyone know a place on Canada or the US, were I can get it (potassium
> carbonate) ASAP?

www.thewinelab.com

Are
> there any other options? One shop that I spoke to had a PH raising
> solution
> of Potassium Carbonate, Glycerol and Potassium Sorbate, but I think this
> solution may have detrimental effects when I run a MLF after the PH is
> fixed?

You _definitely_ don't want to use that in your - or for that matter ANY -
wine! Running ML in the presence of sorbate will make your wine smell like
geraniums. >8^P

> So, what should I do in the meantime? Should I rack the wine, or just
> leave
> it in the primary?

Assuming the primary is a carboy under airlock, leave it in there for now.
I'd recommend that you sulfite it to ~10 ppm free SO2 for now. When you add
the carbonate to raise the pH some of that will blow off with the CO2 that's
formed in the process (careful it doesn't foam over on you!), and what
remains won't be enough to inhibit ML.

BTW, be sure you don't raise the pH too high before inducing ML, because ML
will also raise the pH. I'd probably aim to adjust with carbonate to ~
3.1-3.2 or so. It would be a good idea to do a bench trial on a portion of
the batch (add known weight of carbonate to a known volume of wine, degas,
chill out the bitartrate and measure the pH) to get a feel for how much
carbonate you'll need for the whole lot.

Tom S

Thanks again Tom...

Here's the status... The wine is in a carboy under airlock and the free
SO2 is about ~15 ppm (it was already at that level...so I didn't need
to add any more sulphite.)

I ordered some Potassium Bicarbonate from a shop William F.
recommended, so I will wait until it arrives. Once it arrives...I will
added it based on your recommendations, then...(here comes a
question)...Run the MLF or cold stabilize first?

Cheers,

Shawn

Thanks again Tom...

Here's the status... The wine is in a carboy under airlock and the free
SO2 is about ~15 ppm (it was already at that level...so I didn't need
to add any more sulphite.)

I ordered some Potassium Bicarbonate from a shop William F.
recommended, so I will wait until it arrives. Once it arrives...I will
added it based on your recommendations, then...(here comes a
question)...Run the MLF or cold stabilize first?

Cheers,

Shawn

Shawn - Do you have a pH meter? If so use it when you treat with potassium
bicarbonate. I've
treated finished wine and juice before fermentation. Here's how I do it.

When you add K bicarbonate to wine or juice a lot of carbon dioxide will be
released. So do this in a container that has lots of head space and is open
to the air. A pail or tank is ideal. Presque Isle, and other sources for
winemaking information, says 3.4grams of K bicarbonate will lower the %TA by
0.1% (1gram/liter). I calculate the theoretical amount of K bicarbonate I
want to add based on this formula and the actual acid content. Then I add
the K bicarbonate slowly with lots of mixing to be sure it dissolves. I
have the pH probe in the wine or juice I'm treating and watch pH as the
chemical is added. Granted, the pH reading will not be completely accurate
because of the presence of CO2 in the wine but it does give me some measure
of confidence that I don't let pH get too high. I may add all of the K
bicarbonate that I've measured or I may stop the addition if pH gets near my
cut-off value.

The wine or juice should be at room temperature for this treatment. If the
wine is very cold you take a chance on not having all of the K bicarbonate
react quickly with acid. You will be left with salty tasting juice or wine.
This eventually goes away but it's better to have the reaction go to
completion as soon as possible. After the CO2 release seems complete
transfer the wine to a full carboy and move to cold storage to get maximum
benefit from the treatment. If you are treating juice go ahead and make
wine as usual.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA


"infernot" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks again Tom...
>
> Here's the status... The wine is in a carboy under airlock and the free
> SO2 is about ~15 ppm (it was already at that level...so I didn't need
> to add any more sulphite.)
>
> I ordered some Potassium Bicarbonate from a shop William F.
> recommended, so I will wait until it arrives. Once it arrives...I will
> added it based on your recommendations, then...(here comes a
> question)...Run the MLF or cold stabilize first?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shawn
>

"infernot" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks again Tom...
>
> Here's the status... The wine is in a carboy under airlock and the free
> SO2 is about ~15 ppm (it was already at that level...so I didn't need
> to add any more sulphite.)
>
> I ordered some Potassium Bicarbonate from a shop William F.
> recommended, so I will wait until it arrives. Once it arrives...I will
> added it based on your recommendations, then...(here comes a
> question)...Run the MLF or cold stabilize first?

Hmm, good question. I'd say degas and cold stabilize the sample and then
measure the pH. If that's satisfactory, treat the entire lot and degas but
_don't_ cold stabilize yet. Wait until ML is complete, the wine is
aged/oaked to taste, fine with bentonite and whatever and _then_ cold
stabilize the entire lot.

Tom S

I have worked with whites with acids that high and you have good advice
from Tom and Bill already.

FWIW when I work with potassium bicarbonate (I can't seem to find
potassium carbonate in wine making shops out here in the east either)
it seems to be more effective at swinging pH and lowering acid
initially at those higher acid levels. In other words, calculate what
you want to add and put in only half or less initially, then check that
pH like Bill said. I might go for 7 gram per gallon or less initially.
I would not add more than 14 grams per gallon no matter what, if it
seem like you will need to go there, taste samples carefully first.

My 'guesstimate' value for the cold stabilizing drop is around 1 gram
per liter.

Joe


Tom S wrote:
> "infernot" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Thanks again Tom...
> >
> > Here's the status... The wine is in a carboy under airlock and the
free
> > SO2 is about ~15 ppm (it was already at that level...so I didn't
need
> > to add any more sulphite.)
> >
> > I ordered some Potassium Bicarbonate from a shop William F.
> > recommended, so I will wait until it arrives. Once it arrives...I
will
> > added it based on your recommendations, then...(here comes a
> > question)...Run the MLF or cold stabilize first?
>
> Hmm, good question. I'd say degas and cold stabilize the sample and
then
> measure the pH. If that's satisfactory, treat the entire lot and
degas but
> _don't_ cold stabilize yet. Wait until ML is complete, the wine is
> aged/oaked to taste, fine with bentonite and whatever and _then_ cold
> stabilize the entire lot.
>
> Tom S

Thanks guys... I think I am prepared for the next steps....

I am a bit confused on the differences are between using Pot.
Bicarbonate and Carbonate. Are they essentially the same?
Cheers,

Shawn

Joe, where do you get your Pot. Bicarbonate?

Thanks guys... I think I am prepared for the next steps....

I am a bit confused on the differences are between using Pot.
Bicarbonate and Carbonate. Are they essentially the same?
Cheers,

Shawn

Joe, where do you get your Pot. Bicarbonate?

"infernot" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I am a bit confused on the differences are between using Pot.
> Bicarbonate and Carbonate. Are they essentially the same?

Potassium carbonate is K2CO3 (Mol. wt. 138).

Potassium bicarbonate is KHCO3 (Mol wt. 100).

For your purposes they are functionally equivalent in effect, just slightly
different in potency.

Tom S

Shawn,
Presque Isle, piwine.com has it, you can get around 4 ounces or a
pound. I'm sure someone local to you sould have it.
Joe

>
> Joe, where do you get your Pot. Bicarbonate?

"infernot" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks guys... I think I am prepared for the next steps....
>
> I am a bit confused on the differences are between using Pot.
> Bicarbonate and Carbonate. Are they essentially the same?

I forgot to mention something important: _DON'T_ use _sodium_ bicarbonate
to reduce acidity in wine! You would end up with a salty tasting wine,
because you can't chill the excess sodium out. Only potassium salts work
properly in this application.

Tom S