First of all this post may be a little long, but I think all of the
facts and information that are included are necessary in order to
understand what I am asking for. I need some time of an explination,
directions or what every on the subject listed above. Although I
specifically say Black Berry, I have had the more or less same results
with muscadine, and Blue Berry wine. In each case the final PH is less
and final TA is more than in the beginning of the wine making process.
Living in the State of Georgia, I have confined my winemaking to these
three fruits because they are available and plentiful. I have three
examples to explain these observations.

Batch #1. Starting SG of 1012 with PH of 3.19 and TA .24. Added sugar
to 1085, 20 grams Acid blend to TA .5 and 18 grams yeast nutrient to
must. Now fermented dry with SG of 994, PH 2.81(drop)and TA of .675
(Increase). This batch was done using the recipe found at the E. C.
Kraus web site.

Batch #2. Starting SG of 1012, PH of 3.10 and TA of .36. Added sugar to
1085 and 18 grams of yeast nutrient to must.(No Acid to this batch)
Fermented dry to SG 994, PH 2.78 (drop) and TA .63 (Incrase).

Batch #3. Starting SG of 1018 (Quart more Berries), PH of 3.5 and TA of
..36. Added sugar to 1085 and 18 grams of yeast nutrient to must.
Fermented dry to SG of 992, PH of 2.8 (drop) and TA of .66 (increase).

I used Montrachet yeast for each of the cases listed above. Left each
batch in the primary fermentor about the same amount of time, removing
to secondary when SG dropped to 1010. This is my fourth year of
indulgence with this hobby and I believe that I know how to make all of
the desired as well as necessary measurements for this hobby. I have
read just about everything I can find on the internet and books that I
have been unable to find much on this subject. I have never entered any
contests but always get good comments from all who have sampled it. I
am a 71 year old retired electronic maintenance person and am
accustomed to being able to figure why things happen usually, but so
far this problem has me stumped. Any and all comments will be welcome.
Aubrey

atjo wrote:
> In each case the final PH is less and final TA is more than in the
> beginning of the wine making process.
> this problem has me stumped.

The TA of wines naturally increases during fermentation due to the
formation of acids (e.g. succinic, lactic, etc). In grape wines, with
their predominantly tartaric acid composition and reasonably high level
of potassium, this increase is offset by a reduction in acidity due to
potassium bitartrate precipitation (as the alcohol content increases
during fermentation, the solubility of potassium bitartrate decreases
and it is precipitated). The decrease this causes is usually about
equal to the increase in acidity that occurred during fermentation,
resulting in a net increase in TA of 0-0.5 g/l.

In non-grape wines, the acid profile of non-grape fruits, however, is
usually naturally dominated by malic and citric acids. Provided that no
significant portion of tartaric acid has been added to a non-grape must
and the predominant acids are non-tartaric, a significant acid
reduction due to potassium bitartrate precipitation will not occur.
(Likewise for grape wines with low K content etc). Thus, it can be
expected that a non-tartaric must with a relatively natural acid
profile will undergo a TA increase during to fermentation, and a
subsequent drop in pH.

This means that non-tartaric musts should be treated with this in mind.
A blueberry must TA of 4 g/l (as tartaric) is perfectly acceptable for
a wine that will be dry - and should *not* be acidified (depending on
style). I've never seen this information presented in any book on
non-grape winemaking, and this fact represents perfectly the lack of
advanced knowledge in the non-grape wine world.
Ben

Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> atjo wrote:
> > In each case the final PH is less and final TA is more than in the
> > beginning of the wine making process.
> > this problem has me stumped.
>

> In non-grape wines, the acid profile of non-grape fruits, however, is
> usually naturally dominated by malic and citric acids. Provided that no
> significant portion of tartaric acid has been added to a non-grape must
> and the predominant acids are non-tartaric, a significant acid
> reduction due to potassium bitartrate precipitation will not occur.
> (Likewise for grape wines with low K content etc). Thus, it can be
> expected that a non-tartaric must with a relatively natural acid
> profile will undergo a TA increase during to fermentation, and a
> subsequent drop in pH.
You can reduce the TA and PH abit with MLF

> > expected that a non-tartaric must with a relatively natural acid
> > profile will undergo a TA increase during to fermentation, and a
> > subsequent drop in pH.

> You can reduce the TA and PH abit with MLF

MLF will reduce the TA but *raise* the pH. Perhaps that's what you
meant.

Other options (aside from dilution and sweetening) are to use malic
metabolising yeast for alcoholic fermentation, chemical
deacidification, or carbonic maceration.

Ben

> > expected that a non-tartaric must with a relatively natural acid
> > profile will undergo a TA increase during to fermentation, and a
> > subsequent drop in pH.

> You can reduce the TA and PH abit with MLF

MLF will reduce the TA but *raise* the pH. Perhaps that's what you
meant.

Other options (aside from dilution and sweetening) are to use malic
metabolising yeast for alcoholic fermentation, chemical
deacidification, or carbonic maceration.

Ben

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> > > expected that a non-tartaric must with a relatively natural acid
> > > profile will undergo a TA increase during to fermentation, and a
> > > subsequent drop in pH.
>
> > You can reduce the TA and PH abit with MLF
>
> MLF will reduce the TA but *raise* the pH. Perhaps that's what you
> meant.
>
Yeah, I posted with out thinking it out.

First of all I would like to thank Ben for his post. You have confirmed
my thinking although I am by no means an authority on this or any
subject concerning wine making. So called country wines are the extent
of my wine making. I will tell you how I attempted to solve the problem
and only time will tell the results.
1. I added 6 grams of Potassium Bicarbonate to the #1 5 gallon batch
and measured the following change. PH increased from 2.81 to a PH of
2.89. No change to TA
2. Added 15 grams of Potassium Bicarbonate to the #1 batch and measured
the following changes. PH increased from 2.89 to a PH of 3.08. TA
decreased from .675 to a TA of .57.
3. Added 5 grams of Potassium Bicarbonate to the #1 batch and measured
the following changes. PH increased from a PH of 3.08 to a PH of 3.3
and TA decreased from .57 to a TA of .45.
The wine had been stabilized for about two weeks prior to these changes
but not clarified. By adding the Potassium Bicarbonate just a little at
a time the foaming was minimal. I did not cold stabilize because I did
not want any acid reduction, on an increase in PH. My understanding is
that cold stabilization will reduce Tartic Acid and since the
predominant acid in blackberries is Malic, that is the reduction I was
looking for. Hopefully that is what I got. As I said before only time
will, but I am happing with my PH and TA readings.(My years in
maintenance made me do this.) I will post again in two or three months
and give a final report. Once again, My thanks to Ben for his
information and others for their posts. Aubrey

Sweetened to taste at SG 1012 and final PH was 3.38 with TA at .60.
Taste at this time was excellent. final report after a few months to
settle. I assume the change in PH and TA was the result of the water
used to melt the sugar raising the Specific Gravity. At any rate, so
far I am pleased with the final results. Aubrey

Hi Ben

Outstanding post. Thank you. This topic has been discussed for years
in this group without anyone taking much notice (or so it seems). In all
of nature the grape is unique in it's acid composition. The techniques
for dealing with this is highly specialized and highly specific to grapes,
and these techniques have little if any application for non-tartaric wines.
Tartaric is seldom the best choice for adding to non-tartaric wines and
MLF in a Malic (non-tartaric) wine can be devastating. Unfortunately,
the great majority of the literature is devoted to "the grape" and these
differences are not well covered in "country" literature. Thank you for
raising the level of attention in this group about such things.

Frederick



> wrote in message
ups.com...
> atjo wrote:
>> In each case the final PH is less and final TA is more than in the
>> beginning of the wine making process.
>> this problem has me stumped.
>
> The TA of wines naturally increases during fermentation due to the
> formation of acids (e.g. succinic, lactic, etc). In grape wines, with
> their predominantly tartaric acid composition and reasonably high level
> of potassium, this increase is offset by a reduction in acidity due to
> potassium bitartrate precipitation (as the alcohol content increases
> during fermentation, the solubility of potassium bitartrate decreases
> and it is precipitated). The decrease this causes is usually about
> equal to the increase in acidity that occurred during fermentation,
> resulting in a net increase in TA of 0-0.5 g/l.
>
> In non-grape wines, the acid profile of non-grape fruits, however, is
> usually naturally dominated by malic and citric acids. Provided that no
> significant portion of tartaric acid has been added to a non-grape must
> and the predominant acids are non-tartaric, a significant acid
> reduction due to potassium bitartrate precipitation will not occur.
> (Likewise for grape wines with low K content etc). Thus, it can be
> expected that a non-tartaric must with a relatively natural acid
> profile will undergo a TA increase during to fermentation, and a
> subsequent drop in pH.
>
> This means that non-tartaric musts should be treated with this in mind.
> A blueberry must TA of 4 g/l (as tartaric) is perfectly acceptable for
> a wine that will be dry - and should *not* be acidified (depending on
> style). I've never seen this information presented in any book on
> non-grape winemaking, and this fact represents perfectly the lack of
> advanced knowledge in the non-grape wine world.
> Ben
>
> Improved Winemaking
> http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/
>

Frederick,

Thank you for your kind words. I hope this kind of information can be
shared and spread throughout the non-grape winemaking world, hopefully
leading to a general increase in quality.

Ben

> Outstanding post. Thank you. This topic has been discussed for
years
> in this group without anyone taking much notice (or so it seems). In
all
> of nature the grape is unique in it's acid composition. The
techniques
> for dealing with this is highly specialized and highly specific to
grapes,
> and these techniques have little if any application for non-tartaric
wines.
> Tartaric is seldom the best choice for adding to non-tartaric wines
and
> MLF in a Malic (non-tartaric) wine can be devastating.
Unfortunately,
> the great majority of the literature is devoted to "the grape" and
these
> differences are not well covered in "country" literature. Thank you
for
> raising the level of attention in this group about such things.

Ben

I hope this kind of information can be shared and spread throughout the
_grape_winemaking world, hopefully leading to a_decrease_in getting
"grape" answers to "country" questions !! A bit harsh, perhaps, but
true none the less.

Frederick


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Frederick,
>
> Thank you for your kind words. I hope this kind of information can be
> shared and spread throughout the non-grape winemaking world, hopefully
> leading to a general increase in quality.
>
> Ben
>
>> Outstanding post. Thank you. This topic has been discussed for
> years
>> in this group without anyone taking much notice (or so it seems). In
> all
>> of nature the grape is unique in it's acid composition. The
> techniques
>> for dealing with this is highly specialized and highly specific to
> grapes,
>> and these techniques have little if any application for non-tartaric
> wines.
>> Tartaric is seldom the best choice for adding to non-tartaric wines
> and
>> MLF in a Malic (non-tartaric) wine can be devastating.
> Unfortunately,
>> the great majority of the literature is devoted to "the grape" and
> these
>> differences are not well covered in "country" literature. Thank you
> for
>> raising the level of attention in this group about such things.
>