I came across the newsgroup FAQ while trying to answer this question.
It didn't have a comment about this from what I could see, but the
experience therein meant I could probably get an answer.

My friend and I have started homebrewing recently. We got a fairly
simple starter kit. Generally, we're using glass tubs instead of
plastic, and we got a wort chiller recently. We've done one set of beer
and are working on the second. We're not fully experienced yet, but it
seems like we're doing OK (so far).

I looked at a basic tutorial on making wine and found a lot of procedure
similar. I'm curious where there are some major differences. The only
main one I can see is it takes many months in storage to prepare the
wine, whereas beer is ready within a few weeks. With that in mind, I
want to try making some wine now so that I can try it in a few months
when I'd be prepared to tackle it more seriously.

Given a beer starter kit, would I need anything else to make wine?
That's excluding ingredients and bottles, of course. Speaking of
ingredients, can I get some premade stuff like the wheat syrups at
homebrew stores? I'd want to minimize some of the fuss at the start.

It sounds like some people in here homebrew too, so I hope they'll share
some advice. Personally, volume for volume, I'd rather be making wine...

It would seem that all you need to do is buy yourself a wine kit and one
extra fermenter - but you may already have that since you speak of "glass
tubs"

Certainly if you were using polyethylene fermenters I would recommend that
you should not use the same ones for beer and wine. I make beer only a
couple of times a year but I have totally separate equipment for that
purpose.

Using glass it should be easy to make sure that all traces of a previous
"brew" are removed whereas with polyethylene there is inevitably some
element of tainting -- I even have different fermenters for my reds and
whites --I am not sure it makes any difference but I do that anyway.

With regard to differences, you have caught the main one --- time and
patience bring great rewards with wine. Also since the end product in wine
is of a much higher abv it is more resilient to infections and is more
tolerant of less good methods. I have had a couple of failed beer brews
over the years but I cannot think of a single failure in making wine.
I would also say though that many beginners in this hobby interfere with
their early ferments far too much ( they want to see what is happening and
feel that "something must be done to it "). Whereas wine really benefits by
being left to get on by itself at the various stages.
Certainly the concept of "time and patience" is a real asset to the home
vintner

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
Web Site:- www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk ( Cycling to Santiago de
Compostela 2004)

"Adam Preble" > wrote in message
...
>I came across the newsgroup FAQ while trying to answer this question. It
>didn't have a comment about this from what I could see, but the experience
>therein meant I could probably get an answer.
>
> My friend and I have started homebrewing recently. We got a fairly simple
> starter kit. Generally, we're using glass tubs instead of plastic,
<snip><snip>
>
> It sounds like some people in here homebrew too, so I hope they'll share
> some advice. Personally, volume for volume, I'd rather be making wine...

It would seem that all you need to do is buy yourself a wine kit and one
extra fermenter - but you may already have that since you speak of "glass
tubs"

Certainly if you were using polyethylene fermenters I would recommend that
you should not use the same ones for beer and wine. I make beer only a
couple of times a year but I have totally separate equipment for that
purpose.

Using glass it should be easy to make sure that all traces of a previous
"brew" are removed whereas with polyethylene there is inevitably some
element of tainting -- I even have different fermenters for my reds and
whites --I am not sure it makes any difference but I do that anyway.

With regard to differences, you have caught the main one --- time and
patience bring great rewards with wine. Also since the end product in wine
is of a much higher abv it is more resilient to infections and is more
tolerant of less good methods. I have had a couple of failed beer brews
over the years but I cannot think of a single failure in making wine.
I would also say though that many beginners in this hobby interfere with
their early ferments far too much ( they want to see what is happening and
feel that "something must be done to it "). Whereas wine really benefits by
being left to get on by itself at the various stages.
Certainly the concept of "time and patience" is a real asset to the home
vintner

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
Web Site:- www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk ( Cycling to Santiago de
Compostela 2004)

"Adam Preble" > wrote in message
...
>I came across the newsgroup FAQ while trying to answer this question. It
>didn't have a comment about this from what I could see, but the experience
>therein meant I could probably get an answer.
>
> My friend and I have started homebrewing recently. We got a fairly simple
> starter kit. Generally, we're using glass tubs instead of plastic,
<snip><snip>
>
> It sounds like some people in here homebrew too, so I hope they'll share
> some advice. Personally, volume for volume, I'd rather be making wine...

"pinky" > wrote in message
. uk...
> It would seem that all you need to do is buy yourself a wine kit and
one
> extra fermenter - but you may already have that since you speak of
"glass
> tubs"

That's what I did. Of course, I've also ended up purchasing
an extra 3 gallon carboy for the dessert/specialty kits, too...

> Certainly if you were using polyethylene fermenters I would
recommend that
> you should not use the same ones for beer and wine. I make beer only
a
> couple of times a year but I have totally separate equipment for
that
> purpose.
>
> Using glass it should be easy to make sure that all traces of a
previous
> "brew" are removed whereas with polyethylene there is inevitably
some
> element of tainting -- I even have different fermenters for my reds
and
> whites --I am not sure it makes any difference but I do that anyway.

Speaking of reds, how's that Crushendo kit coming along,
Pinky??

> With regard to differences, you have caught the main one --- time
and
> patience bring great rewards with wine. Also since the end product
in wine
> is of a much higher abv it is more resilient to infections and is
more
> tolerant of less good methods. I have had a couple of failed beer
brews
> over the years but I cannot think of a single failure in making
wine.
> I would also say though that many beginners in this hobby interfere
with
> their early ferments far too much ( they want to see what is
happening and
> feel that "something must be done to it "). Whereas wine really
benefits by
> being left to get on by itself at the various stages.
> Certainly the concept of "time and patience" is a real asset to the
home
> vintner

Having gone the homebrewer -> home winemaker path, I've
found that it is a bit easier to be a home winemaker than
homebrewer. With paranoia that a lot of homebrewers (like
me) have with sanitation, that's one less item you have to
learn with home winemaking. The lack of needing to boil
is also a good thing.

--Mike L.

> "Adam Preble" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I came across the newsgroup FAQ while trying to answer this
question. It
> >didn't have a comment about this from what I could see, but the
experience
> >therein meant I could probably get an answer.
> >
> > My friend and I have started homebrewing recently. We got a
fairly simple
> > starter kit. Generally, we're using glass tubs instead of
plastic,
> <snip><snip>
> >
> > It sounds like some people in here homebrew too, so I hope they'll
share
> > some advice. Personally, volume for volume, I'd rather be making
wine...
>
>

Adam Preble wrote:
> >
> Given a beer starter kit, would I need anything else to make wine?
> That's excluding ingredients and bottles, of course.

Some type of corker, unless you're using screw cap bottles. Campden
tablets or Pot. Meta and a gram scale. There is some additional testing
equipment, but you can probably get by a few batches before buying that
stuff.

> Speaking of
> ingredients, can I get some premade stuff like the wheat syrups at
> homebrew stores?

Yes. They are called wine kits (just ingrediants, not equipement).


Andy

JEP62 wrote:
> Adam Preble wrote:
>
>>Given a beer starter kit, would I need anything else to make wine?
>>That's excluding ingredients and bottles, of course.
>
>
> Some type of corker, unless you're using screw cap bottles. Campden
> tablets or Pot. Meta and a gram scale. There is some additional testing
> equipment, but you can probably get by a few batches before buying that
> stuff.
>
>
>>Speaking of
>>ingredients, can I get some premade stuff like the wheat syrups at
>>homebrew stores?
>
>
> Yes. They are called wine kits (just ingrediants, not equipement).
>
>
> Andy
>
What is the testing equipment? We have a hydrometer, but no wine thief.
Would I need something else?

JEP62 wrote:
> Adam Preble wrote:
>
>>Given a beer starter kit, would I need anything else to make wine?
>>That's excluding ingredients and bottles, of course.
>
>
> Some type of corker, unless you're using screw cap bottles. Campden
> tablets or Pot. Meta and a gram scale. There is some additional testing
> equipment, but you can probably get by a few batches before buying that
> stuff.
>
>
>>Speaking of
>>ingredients, can I get some premade stuff like the wheat syrups at
>>homebrew stores?
>
>
> Yes. They are called wine kits (just ingrediants, not equipement).
>
>
> Andy
>
What is the testing equipment? We have a hydrometer, but no wine thief.
Would I need something else?

<...>
> What is the testing equipment? We have a hydrometer, but no wine
thief.
> Would I need something else?

If you buy a wine kit (which I would also strongly encourage), you
probably don't need anything more than the hydrometer. If you were
starting from grapes or some other fruit, you'd want to test the
acidity (which would likely need some adjustment), and for that you'd
want an acid test kit (probably $10 to $15). Eventually, you may want
to test your wines for SO2 levels (if you're aging for months/years),
that's another inexpensive test kit. But kits are designed to have the
right sugar levels, acidity, etc., so you really don't need much. And
kits include all the ingredients you'll need (yeast, finings, sorbate
in case you want to sweeten it, etc.) Get one of the entry-level
(4-week) kits to start; they are less expensive and are ready to drink
sooner. The white wine kits tend to be a bit nicer (and ready sooner)
than the reds at the same price level.

Happy fermenting!

Doug

<...>
> What is the testing equipment? We have a hydrometer, but no wine
thief.
> Would I need something else?

If you buy a wine kit (which I would also strongly encourage), you
probably don't need anything more than the hydrometer. If you were
starting from grapes or some other fruit, you'd want to test the
acidity (which would likely need some adjustment), and for that you'd
want an acid test kit (probably $10 to $15). Eventually, you may want
to test your wines for SO2 levels (if you're aging for months/years),
that's another inexpensive test kit. But kits are designed to have the
right sugar levels, acidity, etc., so you really don't need much. And
kits include all the ingredients you'll need (yeast, finings, sorbate
in case you want to sweeten it, etc.) Get one of the entry-level
(4-week) kits to start; they are less expensive and are ready to drink
sooner. The white wine kits tend to be a bit nicer (and ready sooner)
than the reds at the same price level.

Happy fermenting!

Doug

Adam Preble wrote:
>
> What is the testing equipment? We have a hydrometer, but no wine
thief.
> Would I need something else?

A wine thief is good to have. I was talking more like an acid test kit,
pH meter, chromotography test kit (for malic acid), SO2 test kit or
Titrets. Many people get by (especially with kits) without any of this.


If you get into buying fresh grapes there is a whole set of other
equipment you may want to look into to make things easier.

Andy

"pinky" > wrote in message
. uk...
>
> Certainly if you were using polyethylene fermenters I would recommend that
> you should not use the same ones for beer and wine. I make beer only a
> couple of times a year but I have totally separate equipment for that
> purpose.
>

Absolutely unnecessary. My own personal experience, shared by many other
people, is that there is no transfer of flavour or aroma from wine to beer
or vice versa from any equipment, including plastic. The most telling
example of this comes from the time we put some ginger beer in a plastic
tank. The smell of ginger permeated the plastic and you could smell it for
years afterward. Yet no ginger smell ever went into anything else that went
into that tank. This need for separate equipment is a myth that needs
debunking.

Brian

"pinky" > wrote in message
. uk...
>
> Certainly if you were using polyethylene fermenters I would recommend that
> you should not use the same ones for beer and wine. I make beer only a
> couple of times a year but I have totally separate equipment for that
> purpose.
>

Absolutely unnecessary. My own personal experience, shared by many other
people, is that there is no transfer of flavour or aroma from wine to beer
or vice versa from any equipment, including plastic. The most telling
example of this comes from the time we put some ginger beer in a plastic
tank. The smell of ginger permeated the plastic and you could smell it for
years afterward. Yet no ginger smell ever went into anything else that went
into that tank. This need for separate equipment is a myth that needs
debunking.

Brian

"Adam Preble" > wrote in message
...
>
> I looked at a basic tutorial on making wine and found a lot of procedure
> similar. I'm curious where there are some major differences.

The biggest difference is in the level of sanitation required. Beer needs
more. It has lower alcohol and higher pH and those things add up to
increased susceptibility to bacterial spoilage.

Sulfites are not a reliable source of sanitation for brewing. I highly
recommend Five Star's PBW for cleaning (Oxyclean is similar and I'm told
people get comparable results) and Star San for sanitizing.

Adequate pitching rates are also important in brewing to get fermentation
underway quickly so bacteria have less chance to get a foothold. For a 5
gallon batch, 15 grams of dried yeast would not be too much, even more if
you are cold pitching a lager. If using liquid yeast, make at least a pint
starter for ales, a half gallon for lagers. Let the starters finish, settle
out, and rack off the liquid so that all you are pitching is the yeast
slurry.

Yeast selection and fermentation temperature will play a much larger role in
brewing than they do in winemaking. Brew beer according to what your
environment can deliver for best results. It won't be long before you want
to buy yourself a spare freezer with temperature controller. Useful for
wines as well, if you want to cold ferment and cold stabilize.

Brian

"Adam Preble" > wrote in message
...
>
> I looked at a basic tutorial on making wine and found a lot of procedure
> similar. I'm curious where there are some major differences.

The biggest difference is in the level of sanitation required. Beer needs
more. It has lower alcohol and higher pH and those things add up to
increased susceptibility to bacterial spoilage.

Sulfites are not a reliable source of sanitation for brewing. I highly
recommend Five Star's PBW for cleaning (Oxyclean is similar and I'm told
people get comparable results) and Star San for sanitizing.

Adequate pitching rates are also important in brewing to get fermentation
underway quickly so bacteria have less chance to get a foothold. For a 5
gallon batch, 15 grams of dried yeast would not be too much, even more if
you are cold pitching a lager. If using liquid yeast, make at least a pint
starter for ales, a half gallon for lagers. Let the starters finish, settle
out, and rack off the liquid so that all you are pitching is the yeast
slurry.

Yeast selection and fermentation temperature will play a much larger role in
brewing than they do in winemaking. Brew beer according to what your
environment can deliver for best results. It won't be long before you want
to buy yourself a spare freezer with temperature controller. Useful for
wines as well, if you want to cold ferment and cold stabilize.

Brian

>The smell of ginger permeated the plastic and you could smell it for
> years afterward. Yet no ginger smell ever went into anything else that
> went
> into that tank. This need for separate equipment is a myth that needs
> debunking

I hear what you are saying Brian but I shall continue in my practice of
using different fermenters for wine and beer.

To me it is an unnecessary risk in what is a relatively expensive hobby. I
suspect it is also dependant on the quality of the containers being used. I
have always been aware that polyethylene containers should not be used for
long term storage of wine and of the need to keep other possible tainting
products well away from such containers due to the inherent permeability of
the vessel walls.

If a container smells of a product ( as all my fermenters do ) then there
must be some residual material which has combined with the internal surface
of the "plastic" container. Whether or not that transfers to any future
contents of that container I am not prepared to risk any spoilage of my
expensive musts

So I accept that your experience is in an opposite direction but I shall
just continue as I am and will express my opinion in this way and I do not
accept your debunking of a "myth"

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
Web Site:- www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "pinky" > wrote in message
> . uk...
>>
>> Certainly if you were using polyethylene fermenters I would recommend
>> that
>> you should not use the same ones for beer and wine. I make beer only a
>> couple of times a year but I have totally separate equipment for that
>> purpose.
>>
>
> Absolutely unnecessary. My own personal experience, shared by many other
<snip><snip>

Brian Lundeen wrote:
> "Adam Preble" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> The biggest difference is in the level of sanitation required. Beer
needs
> more.

The only difference in my sanitizing between beer and wine is the beer
is boiled.

> It has lower alcohol and higher pH and those things add up to
> increased susceptibility to bacterial spoilage.

Agreed.
>
> Sulfites are not a reliable source of sanitation for brewing. I
highly
> recommend Five Star's PBW for cleaning (Oxyclean is similar and I'm
told
> people get comparable results) and Star San for sanitizing.

I think this is where you and I disagree. While sulfites in the beer
won't be very effective because of the pH, a strong sulfite solution is
very effective for equipment. I even store my (clean) fermenters and
carboys with a little sulfite solution in them. When it's time to use,
just drain and use.

>
> Brian

Andy

"JEP62" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> I think this is where you and I disagree. While sulfites in the beer
> won't be very effective because of the pH, a strong sulfite solution is
> very effective for equipment. I even store my (clean) fermenters and
> carboys with a little sulfite solution in them. When it's time to use,
> just drain and use.
>
If it continues to work for you, fine. If you get an infected beer,
seriously consider switching sanitizers.

Brian

"JEP62" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> I think this is where you and I disagree. While sulfites in the beer
> won't be very effective because of the pH, a strong sulfite solution is
> very effective for equipment. I even store my (clean) fermenters and
> carboys with a little sulfite solution in them. When it's time to use,
> just drain and use.
>
If it continues to work for you, fine. If you get an infected beer,
seriously consider switching sanitizers.

Brian

"pinky" > wrote in message
. uk...
> >This need for separate equipment is a myth that needs
>> debunking
>
>
> So I accept that your experience is in an opposite direction but I shall
> just continue as I am and will express my opinion in this way and I do not
> accept your debunking of a "myth"
>

Just to be precise, I did not claim that my anecdotal evidence debunked the
myth. I said it needs debunking, and the only way to do that is through a
rigorous process of controlled experimentation and evaluation (just to prove
what I already know to be true). ;-) If there was such a definitive study
that laid this to a merciful rest, it would save people the bother of
accumulating separate equipment for their wine and beer hobbies.

Tell me, if you decided to take up sake brewing, would you get a third set?

Brian

My previous reply was not intended to be "stirring" or impolite to you in
any way. However I hold to my previous post in total.

My point was that this does not need to be "debunked". I certainly do not
know that your stated "anecdotal evidence" is by any means true or not.
What I said is that I will hold to my opinion based on my experience, smell,
and taste --- which appears to be different to yours.

I was not entering into an altercation on this subject but you were making
a statement that in a "stand alone" situation was untenable.

I do not believe that my last post on this subject said anything other than
my opinion and experience was different to yours and that I would hold to my
opinion. I would also mention that your first post professed to proclaim the
experience of others, without any qualification

"My own personal experience, shared by many other
people, " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I made no such statement -- purely a personal opinion reached after some 30
plus years of my hobby of making my own alcoholic beverages.

I might also say why does Calvados taste of apples and Cognac is definitely
from wine and casks ( and don't tell me that the solera system of the casks
absorbing many years of sherry don't not add to the flavour of the end
product!)

All of this is in the land of imponderables. Just sit a can of Kerosene
along side one of your polyethylene fermenters for a couple of weeks and
see what happens.

So it is all not a myth -- you are being argumentative - and I am never
argumentative ( What never -- no never, I am never, never .............)

1 It is not a "myth"

2. Use of polyethylene needs to be carefully controlled -- certainly in the
amateur wine/beer making area. I have no experience of commercial grade
containers.

3. Being argumentative was not my intention. But I do feel that you are
talking rubbish ( spelling -- "cr*p" in the American vernacular). Not real
rubbish but unqualified rubbish!

Saki is extremely uninteresting to me ( but obviously not to others) and
lacks the nuances of grape wines and indeed many of my country wines -- so I
have no intention of trying to make it -- it is on a par to making an
insipid low alcohol bland "nothing" ( that will upset lots of folk --
Sorry). I suspect that if you made a bland saki in your "gingerified"
container that someone might just detect it!

Finally, all my glass carboys of 1 gal (imp) and 24 litre , after I have
cleaned and sanitised them, have no after odour! Is there a difference
between glass and polyethylene perhaps?

By the way I have some 50 bulk storage glass containers of 24 litres and 1
gallon (imp).--- ( it used to be 80) and 10 x 28 litre (+) polyethylene
fermenters.

Don't try and talk down to
me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!


--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
Web Site:- www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "pinky" > wrote in message
> . uk...
>> >This need for separate equipment is a myth that needs
>>> debunking
>>
>>
>> So I accept that your experience is in an opposite direction but I shall
>> just continue as I am and will express my opinion in this way and I do
>> not
>> accept your debunking of a "myth"
>>
>
> Just to be precise, I did not claim that my anecdotal evidence debunked
> the
> myth. I said it needs debunking, and the only way to do that is through a
> rigorous process of controlled experimentation and evaluation (just to
> prove
> what I already know to be true). ;-) If there was such a definitive study
> that laid this to a merciful rest, it would save people the bother of
> accumulating separate equipment for their wine and beer hobbies.
>
> Tell me, if you decided to take up sake brewing, would you get a third
> set?
>
> Brian
>
>

Trevor, aka "pinky" wrote concerning Brian's discussion of debunking, myths,
Saki and the need for separate equipment for brewing beer and fermenting
wine~

> 3. Being argumentative was not my intention. But I do feel that you are
> talking rubbish ( spelling -- "cr*p" in the American vernacular). Not
> real rubbish but unqualified rubbish!

Hold on there, seems like Brian lives in Canada. Would you fellows have
your nice discussion and leave us Colonists out of it. Out here on the
Great Plains we still work with what you left us...pints, quarts, ounces and
pounds and we always keep our Kerosene out in the shed and our alcohol
equipment in the cellar ).

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Hi Bill
But I said American not US and, forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't Canada
in North America :-)

And your pints aren't the same as ours in UK!

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
Web Site:- www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> Trevor, aka "pinky" wrote concerning Brian's discussion of debunking,
> myths,
<snip><snip>
>

"pinky" > wrote in message
k...
> Hi Bill
> But I said American not US and, forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't Canada
> in North America :-)
>
> And your pints aren't the same as ours in UK!
>
>
North America refers to the continent, but no one is ever called a North
American. Mexican, Canadian, American, etc. I doubt a Canadian would wish to
be called an American!
Ken (Corn fed, country bred American)

Now that this is completely off topic I know a Canadian border guard
who would disagree.

I made the mistake of answering 'American' to the nationality question
at the border 15 years ago; he ripped my head off while giving me a
geography lesson. I answer more carefully now, 'United States'...

Now on the other hand I'm reasonably sure if I would have called _him_
an American he would have had to find a good reason to shoot me then
and there... Power corrupts...

)

Joe

"pinky" > wrote in message
k...

> I do not believe that my last post on this subject said anything other
> than my opinion and experience was different to yours and that I would
> hold to my opinion. I would also mention that your first post professed to
> proclaim the experience of others, without any qualification
>
> "My own personal experience, shared by many other
> people, " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> I made no such statement -- purely a personal opinion reached after some
> 30 plus years of my hobby of making my own alcoholic beverages.

Well, feel free to pop into rec.crafts.brewing and argue your opinion with
them. There, my statement has been qualified.

>
> I might also say why does Calvados taste of apples and Cognac is
> definitely from wine and casks ( and don't tell me that the solera system
> of the casks absorbing many years of sherry don't not add to the flavour
> of the end product!)

Sorry for not qualifying my statement. I thought I was dealing with someone
intelligent enough not to take it to ridiculous extremes. Obviously I meant
equipment that does not retain liquid, which clearly wooden barrels do. You
would not want to use a barrel for both beer and wine.

>
> All of this is in the land of imponderables. Just sit a can of Kerosene
> along side one of your polyethylene fermenters for a couple of weeks and
> see what happens.

We were discussing transference of flavours between beer and wine. How is
this a compelling argument for your position? Well, I guess when you are
losing the debate...

>
> Don't try and talk down to
> me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
>

There, there, calm down. I understand, you're all just a little on edge over
there these days. Trying times indeed. But really, Charles and Camilla have
the right to be happy just like any of us, so just accept that they are
married and move on. ;-)

Brian

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "pinky" > wrote in message
> k...
>
>> I do not believe that my last post on this subject said anything other
>> than my opinion and experience was different to yours and that I would
>> hold to my opinion. I would also mention that your first post professed
>> to
>> proclaim the experience of others, without any qualification
>>
>> "My own personal experience, shared by many other
>> people, " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>
>> I made no such statement -- purely a personal opinion reached after some
>> 30 plus years of my hobby of making my own alcoholic beverages.
>
> Well, feel free to pop into rec.crafts.brewing and argue your opinion with
> them. There, my statement has been qualified.
>
>>
>> I might also say why does Calvados taste of apples and Cognac is
>> definitely from wine and casks ( and don't tell me that the solera system
>> of the casks absorbing many years of sherry don't not add to the flavour
>> of the end product!)
>
> Sorry for not qualifying my statement. I thought I was dealing with
> someone
> intelligent enough not to take it to ridiculous extremes. Obviously I
> meant
> equipment that does not retain liquid, which clearly wooden barrels do.
> You
> would not want to use a barrel for both beer and wine.
>
>>
>> All of this is in the land of imponderables. Just sit a can of Kerosene
>> along side one of your polyethylene fermenters for a couple of weeks and
>> see what happens.
>
> We were discussing transference of flavours between beer and wine. How is
> this a compelling argument for your position? Well, I guess when you are
> losing the debate...
>
>>
>> Don't try and talk down to
>> me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
>>
>
> There, there, calm down. I understand, you're all just a little on edge
> over
> there these days. Trying times indeed. But really, Charles and Camilla
> have
> the right to be happy just like any of us, so just accept that they are
> married and move on. ;-)

C'mon now, Brian. Chill out. Trevor has long been one of the best
contributors to this NG, so please cut him some slack. I'd really hate to
see him leave again, and so would many others who have benefited from his
experience.

He and I share a bit of crotchety old-fartness, but guess what? You'll be
joining us soon enough (if you live so long).

Peace and out.

Tom S

<Well, feel free to pop into rec.crafts.brewing and argue your opinion with
<them. There, my statement has been qualified.

Why should I? You made the statement on this NG. I responded on this NG. I
have no idea what goes on on rec.crafts.brewing having never visited that
NG. I am not arguing my opinion -- I actually think that doesn't make
sense -- I am ( and have been) expressing my opinion and not making any
argument -- It is you that is arguing!. I have in each of my posts expressed
an opinion which is clearly different to yours. And I shall continue to hold
that opinion regardless of you inability to accept that. You raise this
matter in this NG without qualification and then expect me to move to
another NG to continue ! Brain you must come up with a better response than
that ( ooops I should have said "Brian" it can't be "Brain" when you are
apparently "brainless")

I dislike descending to your level of rhetoric but it might be accepted in
this occasion ( see also below)

<Well, I guess when you are
<losing the debate.

Now that really makes me smile!


"There, there, calm down. I understand, you're all just a little on edge
over
there these days. Trying times indeed. But really, Charles and Camilla have
the right to be happy just like any of us, so just accept that they are
married and move on. ;-)"

Since you descend to the level of making inane comments like this I will
respond in a similar vein to you. -- Well,I guess that you are unable to
post a rational response.

However I will admit that in this comment you have touched a nerve! I am
tempted to make an extremely rude reply but I shall not do so. I would only
say that I happen to be a loyal supporter of Her Majesty the Queen and her
family ( I took an oath of loyalty as a young man on joining the Army and
again on receiving my commission) and find people who make such comments in
a context which has no relevance are indeed "losing the debate"



--
Trevor A Panther,
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
Web Site:- www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
<snip><snip>

Tom,

I need no "slack cutting" from Brain(less)

" I do not believe that my last post on this subject said anything other
than my opinion and experience was different to yours and that I would
hold to my opinion." -- this has been my response and continues to be so.
It is in no way argumentative that I can see!

It is Brain that is making waves not I ( oops sorry spelt his name wrong
again )

In the extreme I can resolve this simply by adding "Brain" to my blocked
list which is what I do to posters that make continual offensive remarks It
is an effective way since it removes the offender from my sight but doesn't
effect his right to post whatever drivel he wishes. I have not done this --
yet

Sahaatak!



--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
Web Site:- www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

"Tom S" > wrote in message
news
>

"Tom S" > wrote in message
news
>
>
> C'mon now, Brian. Chill out. Trevor has long been one of the best
> contributors to this NG, so please cut him some slack. I'd really hate to
> see him leave again, and so would many others who have benefited from his
> experience.
>
> He and I share a bit of crotchety old-fartness, but guess what? You'll be
> joining us soon enough (if you live so long).
>

Hell, I'm already a crotchety old fart, even if I am only 47. I'm sorry, I
have been pushing Trevor's buttons for the sheer enjoyment of watching him
launch into one of his renowned fits of civilized British pique. I haven't
seen one for awhile and I guess I just missed them.

I'll behave from now on. My apologies, Trevor.

Brian

Brian Lundeen wrote:
>
>
> If it continues to work for you, fine. If you get an infected beer,
> seriously consider switching sanitizers.
>
> Brian

If I ever do, I will consider it, but frankly I would look at other
sources of infection first. It's a lot easier to pick up an infection
from the air than it is from my cleaned and sanitized equipment.


Andy

"JEP62" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Brian Lundeen wrote:
>>
>>
>> If it continues to work for you, fine. If you get an infected beer,
>> seriously consider switching sanitizers.
>>
>> Brian
>
> If I ever do, I will consider it, but frankly I would look at other
> sources of infection first. It's a lot easier to pick up an infection
> from the air than it is from my cleaned and sanitized equipment.
>
IMO, assuming your sanitizer is doing the job, the biggest source of
infections in homebrewing come from nooks and crannies that aren't being
properly cleaned and sanitized. Ball valves are very bad for this. This is
why I have stuck with very simple equipment setups, instead of moving to
elaborate structures with lots of plumbing and pumps and stuff.

I can't comment on the bacterial levels of the air where you live, but I can
aerate my wort with a Fizz-X with no problems. It's pretty hard to get away
from air exposure somewhere along the way, and most brewers don't worry
about it. I think picking up an infection from the air is harder than most
people think it is, unless your air is royally tainted.

Brian