While this isn't technically about winemaking, all of us have to store and
age our wine, at one time or another, so I figured this question would still
be appropriate here.

I was wondering what all must be addressed in building yourself a wine
cellar. Not talking about the choosing of wines, or where to purchase them,
or anything like that, but the actual cellar itself. What concerns must be
addressed in regards to temperature, humidity, etc.

One specific question right now is as to why it must have a controlled
higher humidity? Is this just to keep the corks moist, or is there some
other reason too? Also, how does using synthetic corks change these needs?

Any input on this subject, or pointing me to proper place to look, would be
greatly appreciated. Didn't notice anything on wine storage in all the old
messages I'd read back through, so have some hesitation about posting this
here, but at the worst, you just tell me to shut up and go somewhere else
with this question, which is fine.

Thanks in advance for your help
Joel

My own belief is that temperature contol is the most important. The debate
about corks and other closures is much more difficult! But, that being said,
if you have a "real cellar" underground then temperature changes are so much
slower and the wine is so much happier with that sort of regime.
One can obviously build and maintain a strictly temperature controlled
cellar but that is not at all necesary.

About 35 year ago I had a pub in Somerset in England. My cellar was quite
small for a pub but it had a small stream -- well a spring higher up in the
garden, which ran through my celllar all year round.
In hot summers I could guarrentee that my draught beer would be the coolest
in the village and the taps in th ebar woul "frost" up without any
artificial cooling. My quite small stock of wines was stored there also and
I never had problems with them.
The rreal problem with aging is not quite all a matter of the actual
temperature but rather a wide fluctuation in tempersature. Of couse one can
add humity control and if you are maintaining artificial temperature control
then you must similarly maintain humidity control as well. But temperature
control by natural means is ( IMHO) a n inexpensive and probably the best
way off doing it.
When you look how long wine has been made then you must believe in natural
processes and storage.

Sorry -- one of my "high horses"


"Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
news:CWpIe.35$KX4.22@okepread05...
> While this isn't technically about winemaking, all of us have to store and
> age our wine, at one time or another, so I figured this question would
> still
> be appropriate here.
>
> I was wondering what all must be addressed in building yourself a wine
> cellar. Not talking about the choosing of wines, or where to purchase
> them,
> or anything like that, but the actual cellar itself. What concerns must
> be
> addressed in regards to temperature, humidity, etc.
>
> One specific question right now is as to why it must have a controlled
> higher humidity? Is this just to keep the corks moist, or is there some
> other reason too? Also, how does using synthetic corks change these
> needs?
>
> Any input on this subject, or pointing me to proper place to look, would
> be
> greatly appreciated. Didn't notice anything on wine storage in all the
> old
> messages I'd read back through, so have some hesitation about posting this
> here, but at the worst, you just tell me to shut up and go somewhere else
> with this question, which is fine.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help
> Joel
>
>

Actually it's a high horse I absolutely agree with. Would love to have an
underground cellar, just really not an option in this area(t least not
unless you go at axtravagant cost, and even then, VERY likely to flood).
Here in Oklahoma City area the "dirt" is all just red clay. so no drainage
away from anything, and hideous to dig in. so you'd pay a huge amount to
get it dug, and then have to deal with lack of any drainage.

I'm really just kind of thinking ahead here, for now, living in an
apartment, I'm just goign to have to have wineracks out in the apartment.
Deifnitely not optimal, but it's only option for now(don't have room in any
of the closets to setup a little "cellar"). When I buy a house ~3 years
from now though, hoping to take one bedroom with walk-in closet(which I may
have to build, but easy enough to frame out and build something like that),
and convert the closet into a small wine cellar with a breezaire or similar
unit. Obviously, lots of research time in the next 3 years, for things such
as particular unit, etc, jsut trying to get a more general idea of the basic
ideas of wine storage.

I definitely agree that natural, preferably underground, would be the
optimum. In hosue growing up, my bedroom was in the basement, and was
always the most stable temperature wise throughout the year, so I've learned
well that natural environment control can be the best, particularly when you
factor in the savings.

Thanks for the input. Would have loved to see that cellar. Course, predates
my birth by 10 years, and is on other side of the pond, but that's not the
point.

Joel
"Pinky" > wrote in message
. uk...
> My own belief is that temperature contol is the most important. The debate
> about corks and other closures is much more difficult! But, that being
said,
> if you have a "real cellar" underground then temperature changes are so
much
> slower and the wine is so much happier with that sort of regime.
> One can obviously build and maintain a strictly temperature controlled
> cellar but that is not at all necesary.
>
> About 35 year ago I had a pub in Somerset in England. My cellar was quite
> small for a pub but it had a small stream -- well a spring higher up in
the
> garden, which ran through my celllar all year round.
> In hot summers I could guarrentee that my draught beer would be the
coolest
> in the village and the taps in th ebar woul "frost" up without any
> artificial cooling. My quite small stock of wines was stored there also
and
> I never had problems with them.
> The rreal problem with aging is not quite all a matter of the actual
> temperature but rather a wide fluctuation in tempersature. Of couse one
can
> add humity control and if you are maintaining artificial temperature
control
> then you must similarly maintain humidity control as well. But temperature
> control by natural means is ( IMHO) a n inexpensive and probably the best
> way off doing it.
> When you look how long wine has been made then you must believe in
natural
> processes and storage.
>
> Sorry -- one of my "high horses"
>
>
> "Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
> news:CWpIe.35$KX4.22@okepread05...
> > While this isn't technically about winemaking, all of us have to store
and
> > age our wine, at one time or another, so I figured this question would
> > still
> > be appropriate here.
> >
> > I was wondering what all must be addressed in building yourself a wine
> > cellar. Not talking about the choosing of wines, or where to purchase
> > them,
> > or anything like that, but the actual cellar itself. What concerns must
> > be
> > addressed in regards to temperature, humidity, etc.
> >
> > One specific question right now is as to why it must have a controlled
> > higher humidity? Is this just to keep the corks moist, or is there some
> > other reason too? Also, how does using synthetic corks change these
> > needs?
> >
> > Any input on this subject, or pointing me to proper place to look, would
> > be
> > greatly appreciated. Didn't notice anything on wine storage in all the
> > old
> > messages I'd read back through, so have some hesitation about posting
this
> > here, but at the worst, you just tell me to shut up and go somewhere
else
> > with this question, which is fine.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your help
> > Joel
> >
> >
>
>

I also have a huge "cellar" problem.
I now live in a small flat ( apartment -- of 1 bedroom, one sitting room
and kitchen and bathroom.). I bulk age all my wines in my perpetually
darkened bedroom to ease the problem of temperature variation and I have a
small pantry which backs on to an internal "lobby" which contains a
reservoir of cooler air in summer and warmer air in winter. I keep about 140
bottles of wine in there quite successfully. Not ideal conditions compared
with my last house where I had a large understairs "cellar" which was more
or less at the right temperature ( ie slow to change) all year round. There
is normally no need for air conditioning in this part of UK and it would be
an expensive option..
We all try our best to minimise all sort of changes !

And it ain't ever easy!



"Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
newsxrIe.38$KX4.35@okepread05...
> Actually it's a high horse I absolutely agree with. Would love to have an
> underground cellar, just really not an option in this area(t least not
> unless you go at axtravagant cost, and even then, VERY likely to flood).
> Here in Oklahoma City area the "dirt" is all just red clay. so no
> drainage
> away from anything, and hideous to dig in. so you'd pay a huge amount to
> get it dug, and then have to deal with lack of any drainage.
>
> I'm really just kind of thinking ahead here, for now, living in an
> apartment,
<snip><snip>

I agree that temperature is by far the most important.

In my case, I lucked into buying a house with a walk-in fridge (the
previous owner was a hunter who owned a refrigeration company - how
lucky for me!). I ran into problems with humidity and vibration, as
the cooling unit hangs inside the fridge and the fans run constantly.
The walls vibrate when the unit ran, and since I was only running the
cooler down to 55-60F, the unit didn't get enough condensation to drain
out the humidity, leading to an unexpected mold outbreak on the outside
of my corks. I found racks that I could free-stand to avoid the
vibrations. But for humidity control, I now use a container of
"Damp-Rid", which condenses humidity and catches it in a little cup.
I'm not measuring humidity, but I can tell you that the whole mold
problem is gone. Found it at a big box home-interiors store.

Rob

Pinky wrote:
> My own belief is that temperature contol is the most important. The debate
> about corks and other closures is much more difficult! But, that being said,
> if you have a "real cellar" underground then temperature changes are so much
> slower and the wine is so much happier with that sort of regime.
> One can obviously build and maintain a strictly temperature controlled
> cellar but that is not at all necesary.
>
> About 35 year ago I had a pub in Somerset in England. My cellar was quite
> small for a pub but it had a small stream -- well a spring higher up in the
> garden, which ran through my celllar all year round.
> In hot summers I could guarrentee that my draught beer would be the coolest
> in the village and the taps in th ebar woul "frost" up without any
> artificial cooling. My quite small stock of wines was stored there also and
> I never had problems with them.
> The rreal problem with aging is not quite all a matter of the actual
> temperature but rather a wide fluctuation in tempersature. Of couse one can
> add humity control and if you are maintaining artificial temperature control
> then you must similarly maintain humidity control as well. But temperature
> control by natural means is ( IMHO) a n inexpensive and probably the best
> way off doing it.
> When you look how long wine has been made then you must believe in natural
> processes and storage.
>
> Sorry -- one of my "high horses"

Your pub cellar sounds great! If you don't mind my asking, how did you
keep molds and mildew from springing up in the cellar? I'd like to put
a wine cellar in my cellar (yes, real in-the-ground, dirt floor in
portions), but it's quite musty down there. Any tips?

Woods

All y'all are making me jealous.

Though I might have one possibility here, will see in a few years when I buy
a house. But when I do, being in Oklahoma, good chance taht I will have a
tornado shelter. WIll keep a thermometer in there, but if the temperature
is good down there, may use it as a wine cellar.


"Woodswun" > wrote in message
...
> Pinky wrote:
>> My own belief is that temperature contol is the most important. The
>> debate about corks and other closures is much more difficult! But, that
>> being said, if you have a "real cellar" underground then temperature
>> changes are so much slower and the wine is so much happier with that sort
>> of regime.
>> One can obviously build and maintain a strictly temperature controlled
>> cellar but that is not at all necesary.
>>
>> About 35 year ago I had a pub in Somerset in England. My cellar was quite
>> small for a pub but it had a small stream -- well a spring higher up in
>> the garden, which ran through my celllar all year round.
>> In hot summers I could guarrentee that my draught beer would be the
>> coolest in the village and the taps in th ebar woul "frost" up without
>> any artificial cooling. My quite small stock of wines was stored there
>> also and I never had problems with them.
>> The rreal problem with aging is not quite all a matter of the actual
>> temperature but rather a wide fluctuation in tempersature. Of couse one
>> can add humity control and if you are maintaining artificial temperature
>> control then you must similarly maintain humidity control as well. But
>> temperature control by natural means is ( IMHO) a n inexpensive and
>> probably the best way off doing it.
>> When you look how long wine has been made then you must believe in
>> natural processes and storage.
>>
>> Sorry -- one of my "high horses"
>
> Your pub cellar sounds great! If you don't mind my asking, how did you
> keep molds and mildew from springing up in the cellar? I'd like to put a
> wine cellar in my cellar (yes, real in-the-ground, dirt floor in
> portions), but it's quite musty down there. Any tips?
>
> Woods

Joel,

I was able to build a 5' x 8' cellar in my, er, cellar, by erecting two
insulated walls across an outside corner. Just standard 2 x 4's and green
wallboard with fiberglass insulation within. The outer long wall has a rack
capable of holding about 49 dozen bottles, while the other long wall has
shelves & a countertop for supplies and carboys. the outer endwall is not
really useful for much storage, but it does hold racks of glassware. The
temp variation is a bit more than I'd like, from a mid-winter 55°F to a
current 70°F, but it takes a long time to make its one annual swing.
Humidity seems to take care of itself.

As others have lamented, I wish I had more room to store stock.

HTH



--


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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"Woodswun" > wrote in message
...
"
>
> Your pub cellar sounds great! If you don't mind my asking, how did you
> keep molds and mildew from springing up in the cellar? I'd like to put a
> wine cellar in my cellar (yes, real in-the-ground, dirt floor in
> portions), but it's quite musty down there. Any tips?
>
> Woods

A bit OT
Ah -- the floor of the cellar was not a dirt one but part "concrete" and
part ancient stone slabs ( the pub had originally been built in the mid 17th
century) . The v small stream ran in a channel made up from shaped stone
pieces. As for cleanliness it was important to keep the cellar clean and it
was washed down at least weekly by cold water under pressure -- that is all
the walls and the floor. It was very easy to detect unwashed spills by my
nose! Inevitably the cellar smelled of beer and CO2 but "off smells" were
instaantly detected any time I went in the cellar -- which was at least
twice a day. Also the hot water/special detergent mixture that I used to
clean all the beer pipes once every week ( always on a Friday afternoon) was
pour over the floor of the cellar when I was finished with it.
Since all my beers were "cask conditioned" it was essential to keep the
cellar clean and any spillages made when tapping a new barrel were washed
away immediately. As I remember I had 3 different types of draught bitter,
and 1 "mild" ( a dark beer). The draught lager and the Guinness I sold were
my only preconditioned beers that came in special "kegs" and needed CO2
pressure to feed to the bar.

I imagine a tornado shelter is perfect. You're really looking for
consistency in temperature, or at least very slow changes in
temperature. Assuming the whole thing has enough of an earthen/cement
roof to not have temperature swings during each day, you're in
business. I'd consider insulating the doors, though.

Rob

"Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
news:CWpIe.35$KX4.22@okepread05...
> While this isn't technically about winemaking, all of us have to store and
> age our wine, at one time or another, so I figured this question would
> still
> be appropriate here.
>
> I was wondering what all must be addressed in building yourself a wine
> cellar. Not talking about the choosing of wines, or where to purchase
> them,
> or anything like that, but the actual cellar itself. What concerns must
> be
> addressed in regards to temperature, humidity, etc.
>
> One specific question right now is as to why it must have a controlled
> higher humidity? Is this just to keep the corks moist, or is there some
> other reason too? Also, how does using synthetic corks change these
> needs?
>
> Any input on this subject, or pointing me to proper place to look, would
> be
> greatly appreciated. Didn't notice anything on wine storage in all the
> old
> messages I'd read back through, so have some hesitation about posting this
> here, but at the worst, you just tell me to shut up and go somewhere else
> with this question, which is fine.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help
> Joel
>

Joel,

The main considerations for wine storage a

1. Light. Ultriaviolet light ages wine prematurely. Especially reds. That
includes incandescent light bulbs. Keep it as dark as possible. Some wine
storage rooms have florescent light without UV.
2. Temperature. The best temperature to store reds and whites togeter is
54 - 57 F. If the temperture gets lower, some precipitation can occur and
form a sediment. not a bad sediment, but still...sediment. Temperatures
higher than 57 aren't a sin, until it gets up around 68, especially for
reds. then you have premature ageing. Temperatures that fluctuate up and
down also prematurely age wine. Wine is a living thing. If it is always
adjusting to rising a lowering temps it just gets tired and gives up.
3. Humidity. If your humidity is higher than 65% the corks can begin to get
soft and labels will also get soggy and peal off. Also, mold is a big
factor. If the humidity is lower than 50%, the opposite will happen, your
corks will dry out and wine will seep, thus, oxidation.
4. Vibration. Keep your wine free of traffic areas, like under stairs or
beside anything that makes noise or vibrates. Refrigerators etc. Wines
stored in coolers usually have a vibration free unit.

Other than that, store your whites on the bottom and reds on the top. Store
your longest ageing wines at the back and your early drinkers at the front
(that's if your cellar is a walk in).

You probably know all the above, already, but that's the basics. If you're
building a unit, you'll need insulation, of course, and if it's not a
naturally stable temperature, you might need a cooling unit that exhausts
warm air into another room, or to the outside.

Jeff

I actually did not know all that, and that was a greatpost, thank you.
Covered all the major points(at least that I can think of) of what I might
need to know simply and quickly. Thank you very much Jeff. Will probably
print this out and save it(as I said, be a couple of years at least before I
get to do this the way I want). Thanks again to everyone for their input.

Joel

"jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
> news:CWpIe.35$KX4.22@okepread05...
>> While this isn't technically about winemaking, all of us have to store
>> and
>> age our wine, at one time or another, so I figured this question would
>> still
>> be appropriate here.
>>
>> I was wondering what all must be addressed in building yourself a wine
>> cellar. Not talking about the choosing of wines, or where to purchase
>> them,
>> or anything like that, but the actual cellar itself. What concerns must
>> be
>> addressed in regards to temperature, humidity, etc.
>>
>> One specific question right now is as to why it must have a controlled
>> higher humidity? Is this just to keep the corks moist, or is there some
>> other reason too? Also, how does using synthetic corks change these
>> needs?
>>
>> Any input on this subject, or pointing me to proper place to look, would
>> be
>> greatly appreciated. Didn't notice anything on wine storage in all the
>> old
>> messages I'd read back through, so have some hesitation about posting
>> this
>> here, but at the worst, you just tell me to shut up and go somewhere else
>> with this question, which is fine.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help
>> Joel
>>
>
> Joel,
>
> The main considerations for wine storage a
>
> 1. Light. Ultriaviolet light ages wine prematurely. Especially reds. That
> includes incandescent light bulbs. Keep it as dark as possible. Some wine
> storage rooms have florescent light without UV.
> 2. Temperature. The best temperature to store reds and whites togeter is
> 54 - 57 F. If the temperture gets lower, some precipitation can occur and
> form a sediment. not a bad sediment, but still...sediment. Temperatures
> higher than 57 aren't a sin, until it gets up around 68, especially for
> reds. then you have premature ageing. Temperatures that fluctuate up and
> down also prematurely age wine. Wine is a living thing. If it is always
> adjusting to rising a lowering temps it just gets tired and gives up.
> 3. Humidity. If your humidity is higher than 65% the corks can begin to
> get soft and labels will also get soggy and peal off. Also, mold is a big
> factor. If the humidity is lower than 50%, the opposite will happen, your
> corks will dry out and wine will seep, thus, oxidation.
> 4. Vibration. Keep your wine free of traffic areas, like under stairs or
> beside anything that makes noise or vibrates. Refrigerators etc. Wines
> stored in coolers usually have a vibration free unit.
>
> Other than that, store your whites on the bottom and reds on the top.
> Store your longest ageing wines at the back and your early drinkers at the
> front (that's if your cellar is a walk in).
>
> You probably know all the above, already, but that's the basics. If you're
> building a unit, you'll need insulation, of course, and if it's not a
> naturally stable temperature, you might need a cooling unit that exhausts
> warm air into another room, or to the outside.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>

Pinky wrote:
> "Woodswun" > wrote in message
> ...
> "
>
>>Your pub cellar sounds great! If you don't mind my asking, how did you
>>keep molds and mildew from springing up in the cellar? I'd like to put a
>>wine cellar in my cellar (yes, real in-the-ground, dirt floor in
>>portions), but it's quite musty down there. Any tips?
>>
>>Woods
>
>
> A bit OT
> Ah -- the floor of the cellar was not a dirt one but part "concrete" and
> part ancient stone slabs ( the pub had originally been built in the mid 17th
> century) . The v small stream ran in a channel made up from shaped stone
> pieces. As for cleanliness it was important to keep the cellar clean and it
> was washed down at least weekly by cold water under pressure -- that is all
> the walls and the floor. It was very easy to detect unwashed spills by my
> nose! Inevitably the cellar smelled of beer and CO2 but "off smells" were
> instaantly detected any time I went in the cellar -- which was at least
> twice a day. Also the hot water/special detergent mixture that I used to
> clean all the beer pipes once every week ( always on a Friday afternoon) was
> pour over the floor of the cellar when I was finished with it.
> Since all my beers were "cask conditioned" it was essential to keep the
> cellar clean and any spillages made when tapping a new barrel were washed
> away immediately. As I remember I had 3 different types of draught bitter,
> and 1 "mild" ( a dark beer). The draught lager and the Guinness I sold were
> my only preconditioned beers that came in special "kegs" and needed CO2
> pressure to feed to the bar.
>
>

Thanks for the info! I'll look into the possibility of doing something
similar.

cheers,

Woods

Pinky wrote "Since all my beers were "cask conditioned" it was essential to
keep the
> cellar clean and any spillages made when tapping a new barrel were washed
> away immediately. As I remember I had 3 different types of draught bitter,
> and 1 "mild" ( a dark beer). The draught lager and the Guinness I sold
> were my only preconditioned beers that came in special "kegs" and needed
> CO2 pressure to feed to the bar."

Trevor - I've made ales for years but have always bottled with some sugar to
carbonate. I've read with interest about cask conditioned ales in which no
carbon dioxide was used to fill the void as the ale was drawn from the keg.
This of course exposes the ale to air and subsequent oxidation. I imagine
it took some good planning to keep the beer fresh. How long did it usually
take to empty a cask of ale in your pub. Am I correct that serving real
cask conditioned ale is becoming a lost art in the UK? I keep trying to
brew a proper Mild but mine continue to be thin bodied...any pointers?
Thanks.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Sorry to everyone else but this is about beer and not wine!!!


Bill
It is a long time ago and I cannot pretend to be the expert that I was in
1974!

First of all the art of cask conditioned beer is certainly not a dying art.
Indeed many "free houses" ( i.e privately owned pubs) make their own range
of draught beers.

I cannot now actually remember but it was obviously important that the cask,
once tapped and spiled ( a spile is a pourous wooden peg which allows air to
enter the cask - slowly_ as the beer is drawn off and is also a part of the
final conditoning). Thinking back I would expect my 18 gal ( imp) Kilderkins
to be on service for not more than about 2 days maximum. But I could protect
them a bit as well and I certainly remember that on a slow moving barrel I
would squirt some CO2 into the barrel at the end of the evening before
putting a hard spile (ie non pourous) into the barrel for overnighting ( I
had a couple of CO2 cylinders for my lager "keg"beer). The importance was
that I was serving a "live beer" which would continue to be in condition
until the last pint was drawn off . At weekends when the beer was moving
much faster I could filter of the "ends" of a barrel and carefully feed it
into the new one -- bu this took a keen nose and sense of taste to ensure
the "old beer" was still in good condition. I certainly did not run an old
fashioned "feedback" s ystem where the spillage from the hand pumps was fed
back into the "mild" barrel.

I also startled the villagers in Somerset in 1971 when every new order was
serverd in a clean glass. And I never pulled a pint that washed my taps in
the newly pulled pint ( ie I didn't let my beer taps dip into the beer
filling the glass.

There was a lot of resistance to the "clean glass " policy when I first
started but within 6 months it worked well and apart from the fact that all
my draught beers were served in prime sparkliing condition it all meant that
all my wastage was at a minimun. it also meant that I had to have a strile
glass washing machine -- now that was difficult in 1971 and I didn't find
the solution to my problem until 2 years later.

It was also very ,very important that all the pipes feeding the beer from
the cellar to the bar hand pumps were washed regularly and a sensible
landlord cleaned his pipes on Friday afternoon so that his beer for the w/e
were being pullled through the cleanest systems all of the w/e. You could
certainly tell the lazy landlord who din't do this -- I couldn't now but
then I am certainly not a beer drinker over the last 25 years.

Right that's enuff!
On the dark stout that I make for my 98 year old Dad in a 5 gal ( imp)
barrel, I use conditioning sugar and indeed i top it up with CO2 when needed
to keep it incondition -- it is just the same as i did years ago but not
quite so demanding.

To be honest the essentialls were
1. A clean well washed cellar.
2. regular cleaning of the pipes - espescial b4 the w/e.
3. Clean glasses every time so the beer can show itself off
4. No cheating with old sour beers! -- ie great care and a lot of time.

Producing good draught beer, on demand, is much more difficult than
producing a good bottle of wine!

another apology to all of us wine buffs! Sorry!


"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
>
> Pinky wrote "Since all my beers were "cask conditioned" it was essential
> to keep the
>> cellar clean and any spillages made when tapping a new barrel were washed
>> away immediately. As I remember I had 3 different types of draught
>> bitter, and 1 "mild" ( a dark beer). The draught lager and the Guinness I
>> sold were my only preconditioned beers that came in special "kegs" and
>> needed CO2 pressure to feed to the bar."
>
> Trevor - I've made ales for years but have always bottled with some sugar
> to carbonate. I've read with interest about cask conditioned ales in
> which no carbon dioxide was used to fill the void as the ale was drawn
> from the keg. This of course exposes the ale to air and subsequent
> oxidation. I imagine it took some good planning to keep the beer fresh.
> How long did it usually take to empty a cask of ale in your pub. Am I
> correct that serving real cask conditioned ale is becoming a lost art in
> the UK? I keep trying to brew a proper Mild but mine continue to be thin
> bodied...any pointers? Thanks.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
>

Trevor - I bet there are quite a few beer brewers on this list. Thanks for
the insight into proper cellar management for cask conditioned ales. If
your beers only requireded a couple of days storage before the cask was
empty I doubt oxidation would have ever been a problem.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Pinky" > wrote in message
. uk...
> Sorry to everyone else but this is about beer and not wine!!!
>
>
> Bill
> It is a long time ago and I cannot pretend to be the expert that I was in
> 1974!
>
> First of all the art of cask conditioned beer is certainly not a dying
> art. Indeed many "free houses" ( i.e privately owned pubs) make their own
> range of draught beers.
>
> I cannot now actually remember but it was obviously important that the
> cask, once tapped and spiled ( a spile is a pourous wooden peg which
> allows air to enter the cask - slowly_ as the beer is drawn off and is
> also a part of the final conditoning). Thinking back I would expect my 18
> gal ( imp) Kilderkins to be on service for not more than about 2 days
> maximum. But I could protect them a bit as well and I certainly remember
> that on a slow moving barrel I would squirt some CO2 into the barrel at
> the end of the evening before putting a hard spile (ie non pourous) into
> the barrel for overnighting ( I had a couple of CO2 cylinders for my lager
> "keg"beer). The importance was that I was serving a "live beer" which
> would continue to be in condition until the last pint was drawn off . At
> weekends when the beer was moving much faster I could filter of the "ends"
> of a barrel and carefully feed it into the new one -- bu this took a keen
> nose and sense of taste to ensure the "old beer" was still in good
> condition. I certainly did not run an old fashioned "feedback" s ystem
> where the spillage from the hand pumps was fed back into the "mild"
> barrel.
>
> I also startled the villagers in Somerset in 1971 when every new order was
> serverd in a clean glass. And I never pulled a pint that washed my taps in
> the newly pulled pint ( ie I didn't let my beer taps dip into the beer
> filling the glass.
>
> There was a lot of resistance to the "clean glass " policy when I first
> started but within 6 months it worked well and apart from the fact that
> all my draught beers were served in prime sparkliing condition it all
> meant that all my wastage was at a minimun. it also meant that I had to
> have a strile glass washing machine -- now that was difficult in 1971 and
> I didn't find the solution to my problem until 2 years later.
>
> It was also very ,very important that all the pipes feeding the beer from
> the cellar to the bar hand pumps were washed regularly and a sensible
> landlord cleaned his pipes on Friday afternoon so that his beer for the
> w/e were being pullled through the cleanest systems all of the w/e. You
> could certainly tell the lazy landlord who din't do this -- I couldn't now
> but then I am certainly not a beer drinker over the last 25 years.
>
> Right that's enuff!
> On the dark stout that I make for my 98 year old Dad in a 5 gal ( imp)
> barrel, I use conditioning sugar and indeed i top it up with CO2 when
> needed to keep it incondition -- it is just the same as i did years ago
> but not quite so demanding.
>
> To be honest the essentialls were
> 1. A clean well washed cellar.
> 2. regular cleaning of the pipes - espescial b4 the w/e.
> 3. Clean glasses every time so the beer can show itself off
> 4. No cheating with old sour beers! -- ie great care and a lot of time.
>
> Producing good draught beer, on demand, is much more difficult than
> producing a good bottle of wine!
>
> another apology to all of us wine buffs! Sorry!
>
>
> "William Frazier" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Pinky wrote "Since all my beers were "cask conditioned" it was essential
>> to keep the
>>> cellar clean and any spillages made when tapping a new barrel were
>>> washed away immediately. As I remember I had 3 different types of
>>> draught bitter, and 1 "mild" ( a dark beer). The draught lager and the
>>> Guinness I sold were my only preconditioned beers that came in special
>>> "kegs" and needed CO2 pressure to feed to the bar."
>>
>> Trevor - I've made ales for years but have always bottled with some sugar
>> to carbonate. I've read with interest about cask conditioned ales in
>> which no carbon dioxide was used to fill the void as the ale was drawn
>> from the keg. This of course exposes the ale to air and subsequent
>> oxidation. I imagine it took some good planning to keep the beer fresh.
>> How long did it usually take to empty a cask of ale in your pub. Am I
>> correct that serving real cask conditioned ale is becoming a lost art in
>> the UK? I keep trying to brew a proper Mild but mine continue to be thin
>> bodied...any pointers? Thanks.
>>
>> Bill Frazier
>> Olathe, Kansas USA
>>
>>
>
>

Bill,
There's an excellent article in the latest issue of Brew Your Own
magazine about brewing Milds by Terry Foster. Just happened to have
read it last night so I remember he has some tips on increasing body
such as higher mash temps. and using certain dark grains. Check it out
if you can. Never attempted a mild, myself, but am looking forward to
trying one of his recipes.

jeff wrote:
> "Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
> news:CWpIe.35$KX4.22@okepread05...
>
>>While this isn't technically about winemaking, all of us have to store and
>>age our wine, at one time or another, so I figured this question would
>>still
>>be appropriate here.
>>
>>I was wondering what all must be addressed in building yourself a wine
>>cellar. Not talking about the choosing of wines, or where to purchase
>>them,
>>or anything like that, but the actual cellar itself. What concerns must
>>be
>>addressed in regards to temperature, humidity, etc.
>>
>>One specific question right now is as to why it must have a controlled
>>higher humidity? Is this just to keep the corks moist, or is there some
>>other reason too? Also, how does using synthetic corks change these
>>needs?
>>
>>Any input on this subject, or pointing me to proper place to look, would
>>be
>>greatly appreciated. Didn't notice anything on wine storage in all the
>>old
>>messages I'd read back through, so have some hesitation about posting this
>>here, but at the worst, you just tell me to shut up and go somewhere else
>>with this question, which is fine.
>>
>>Thanks in advance for your help
>>Joel
>>
>
>
> Joel,
>
> The main considerations for wine storage a
>
> 1. Light. Ultriaviolet light ages wine prematurely. Especially reds. That
> includes incandescent light bulbs. Keep it as dark as possible. Some wine
> storage rooms have florescent light without UV.
> 2. Temperature. The best temperature to store reds and whites togeter is
> 54 - 57 F. If the temperture gets lower, some precipitation can occur and
> form a sediment. not a bad sediment, but still...sediment. Temperatures
> higher than 57 aren't a sin, until it gets up around 68, especially for
> reds. then you have premature ageing. Temperatures that fluctuate up and
> down also prematurely age wine. Wine is a living thing. If it is always
> adjusting to rising a lowering temps it just gets tired and gives up.
> 3. Humidity. If your humidity is higher than 65% the corks can begin to get
> soft and labels will also get soggy and peal off. Also, mold is a big
> factor. If the humidity is lower than 50%, the opposite will happen, your
> corks will dry out and wine will seep, thus, oxidation.
> 4. Vibration. Keep your wine free of traffic areas, like under stairs or
> beside anything that makes noise or vibrates. Refrigerators etc. Wines
> stored in coolers usually have a vibration free unit.
>
> Other than that, store your whites on the bottom and reds on the top. Store
> your longest ageing wines at the back and your early drinkers at the front
> (that's if your cellar is a walk in).
>

Why should the reds, which are more sensitive to light, be on the top?

> You probably know all the above, already, but that's the basics. If you're
> building a unit, you'll need insulation, of course, and if it's not a
> naturally stable temperature, you might need a cooling unit that exhausts
> warm air into another room, or to the outside.
>
> Jeff

I know your post wasn't directed toward me, but we're about to start the
process of using the bulk of our cellar for a wine cellar, so this was
very helpful to me - thanks!

Woods
>
>
>

"Woodswun" > wrote in message
...
> jeff wrote:
>> "Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
>> news:CWpIe.35$KX4.22@okepread05...
>>
>>>While this isn't technically about winemaking, all of us have to store
>>>and
>>>age our wine, at one time or another, so I figured this question would
>>>still
>>>be appropriate here.
>>>
>>>I was wondering what all must be addressed in building yourself a wine
>>>cellar. Not talking about the choosing of wines, or where to purchase
>>>them,
>>>or anything like that, but the actual cellar itself. What concerns must
>>>be
>>>addressed in regards to temperature, humidity, etc.
>>>
>>>One specific question right now is as to why it must have a controlled
>>>higher humidity? Is this just to keep the corks moist, or is there some
>>>other reason too? Also, how does using synthetic corks change these
>>>needs?
>>>
>>>Any input on this subject, or pointing me to proper place to look, would
>>>be
>>>greatly appreciated. Didn't notice anything on wine storage in all the
>>>old
>>>messages I'd read back through, so have some hesitation about posting
>>>this
>>>here, but at the worst, you just tell me to shut up and go somewhere else
>>>with this question, which is fine.
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance for your help
>>>Joel
>>>
>>
>>
>> Joel,
>>
>> The main considerations for wine storage a
>>
>> 1. Light. Ultriaviolet light ages wine prematurely. Especially reds. That
>> includes incandescent light bulbs. Keep it as dark as possible. Some wine
>> storage rooms have florescent light without UV.
>> 2. Temperature. The best temperature to store reds and whites togeter is
>> 54 - 57 F. If the temperture gets lower, some precipitation can occur and
>> form a sediment. not a bad sediment, but still...sediment. Temperatures
>> higher than 57 aren't a sin, until it gets up around 68, especially for
>> reds. then you have premature ageing. Temperatures that fluctuate up and
>> down also prematurely age wine. Wine is a living thing. If it is always
>> adjusting to rising a lowering temps it just gets tired and gives up.
>> 3. Humidity. If your humidity is higher than 65% the corks can begin to
>> get soft and labels will also get soggy and peal off. Also, mold is a big
>> factor. If the humidity is lower than 50%, the opposite will happen, your
>> corks will dry out and wine will seep, thus, oxidation.
>> 4. Vibration. Keep your wine free of traffic areas, like under stairs or
>> beside anything that makes noise or vibrates. Refrigerators etc. Wines
>> stored in coolers usually have a vibration free unit.
>>
>> Other than that, store your whites on the bottom and reds on the top.
>> Store your longest ageing wines at the back and your early drinkers at
>> the front (that's if your cellar is a walk in).
>>
>
> Why should the reds, which are more sensitive to light, be on the top?
>
>> You probably know all the above, already, but that's the basics. If
>> you're building a unit, you'll need insulation, of course, and if it's
>> not a naturally stable temperature, you might need a cooling unit that
>> exhausts warm air into another room, or to the outside.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> I know your post wasn't directed toward me, but we're about to start the
> process of using the bulk of our cellar for a wine cellar, so this was
> very helpful to me - thanks!
>
> Woods

Whites are usually stored on the bottom, since the cooler temperatures exist
there. even in a temperature controlled room, colder air will still settle
and there can be a 3 degree difference between bottom and top of a wine
cellar. If the light is always off, it shouldn't make a difference about the
reds. However, if your cellar is a walk-in, place longer ageing wines
towards the back, away from the door, or away from the light. Having said
that, vertical placement is chosen for the sake of temperature. Reds can
stand a higher cellar temperature than whites. White wines need a few
degrees cooler than reds, and therefore, the lower shelves are preferred.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

jeff wrote:
> "Woodswun" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>jeff wrote:
>>
>>>"Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
>>>news:CWpIe.35$KX4.22@okepread05...
>>>
>>>
>>>>While this isn't technically about winemaking, all of us have to store
>>>>and
>>>>age our wine, at one time or another, so I figured this question would
>>>>still
>>>>be appropriate here.
>>>>
>>>>I was wondering what all must be addressed in building yourself a wine
>>>>cellar. Not talking about the choosing of wines, or where to purchase
>>>>them,
>>>>or anything like that, but the actual cellar itself. What concerns must
>>>>be
>>>>addressed in regards to temperature, humidity, etc.
>>>>
>>>>One specific question right now is as to why it must have a controlled
>>>>higher humidity? Is this just to keep the corks moist, or is there some
>>>>other reason too? Also, how does using synthetic corks change these
>>>>needs?
>>>>
>>>>Any input on this subject, or pointing me to proper place to look, would
>>>>be
>>>>greatly appreciated. Didn't notice anything on wine storage in all the
>>>>old
>>>>messages I'd read back through, so have some hesitation about posting
>>>>this
>>>>here, but at the worst, you just tell me to shut up and go somewhere else
>>>>with this question, which is fine.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks in advance for your help
>>>>Joel
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Joel,
>>>
>>>The main considerations for wine storage a
>>>
>>>1. Light. Ultriaviolet light ages wine prematurely. Especially reds. That
>>>includes incandescent light bulbs. Keep it as dark as possible. Some wine
>>>storage rooms have florescent light without UV.
>>>2. Temperature. The best temperature to store reds and whites togeter is
>>>54 - 57 F. If the temperture gets lower, some precipitation can occur and
>>>form a sediment. not a bad sediment, but still...sediment. Temperatures
>>>higher than 57 aren't a sin, until it gets up around 68, especially for
>>>reds. then you have premature ageing. Temperatures that fluctuate up and
>>>down also prematurely age wine. Wine is a living thing. If it is always
>>>adjusting to rising a lowering temps it just gets tired and gives up.
>>>3. Humidity. If your humidity is higher than 65% the corks can begin to
>>>get soft and labels will also get soggy and peal off. Also, mold is a big
>>>factor. If the humidity is lower than 50%, the opposite will happen, your
>>>corks will dry out and wine will seep, thus, oxidation.
>>>4. Vibration. Keep your wine free of traffic areas, like under stairs or
>>>beside anything that makes noise or vibrates. Refrigerators etc. Wines
>>>stored in coolers usually have a vibration free unit.
>>>
>>>Other than that, store your whites on the bottom and reds on the top.
>>>Store your longest ageing wines at the back and your early drinkers at
>>>the front (that's if your cellar is a walk in).
>>>
>>
>>Why should the reds, which are more sensitive to light, be on the top?
>>
>>
>>>You probably know all the above, already, but that's the basics. If
>>>you're building a unit, you'll need insulation, of course, and if it's
>>>not a naturally stable temperature, you might need a cooling unit that
>>>exhausts warm air into another room, or to the outside.
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>
>>I know your post wasn't directed toward me, but we're about to start the
>>process of using the bulk of our cellar for a wine cellar, so this was
>>very helpful to me - thanks!
>>
>>Woods
>
>
> Whites are usually stored on the bottom, since the cooler temperatures exist
> there. even in a temperature controlled room, colder air will still settle
> and there can be a 3 degree difference between bottom and top of a wine
> cellar. If the light is always off, it shouldn't make a difference about the
> reds. However, if your cellar is a walk-in, place longer ageing wines
> towards the back, away from the door, or away from the light. Having said
> that, vertical placement is chosen for the sake of temperature. Reds can
> stand a higher cellar temperature than whites. White wines need a few
> degrees cooler than reds, and therefore, the lower shelves are preferred.
>
> Hope this helps.

Yes, it did - thanks!!

Woods


>
> Jeff
>
>