Hello.

I began a cranberry wine using whole frozen berries, post thanksgiving
stock sale!

Anyway, I used a lavlin KV yeast to pitch, but...no go.
Then after a several days, I used Pasteur Champagne yeast...but still
no go,
even after I aerated the batch and also placed it in a tub of hot water
to get its temperature up and encourage those wee beasties to
reproduce., but still no go.

I hesitate to simply throw in another packet of yeast. But I hesitate
to throw the batch away.
Any suggestions? I only have a packet of lavlin ec yeast and a packet
of Pasteur Red or Flor Sherry left. Unfortunately, I live 45 miles
away from the closest winemaking shop...
any help would be appreciated! thanks.

Rick
Fremont, MI

What is the pH and TA?

You coudl add a pinch of carbonate to it and see if that kicks it up.
By a pinch I mean like 1/4 to 1/2 a tsp.

If you do not want to risk the whole batch try it on a little bit moved
into another container. i am betting that will get things moving for
you.

Well, my limited experience is only one batch of cranberry, however, I
found that 1/2 cup warm water - start the yeast - after 24 hours, add 2
oz of cranberry must every 6 hours until you have over a cup, oh, and I
kept it warm at about 75 on a heating pad on low. For me, that was
enough "stuff" to get the "must" moving. I also put the cranberry on the
heating pad with a floating thermometer to keep it at 75.

My local shop told me next time - use liquid yeast, which costs $4, but
is suppose to work on cranberry.

Now, again, I am a novice - less than a year in this hobby/obsession.
Oh, and my cranberry went dry and is ready for bottling in a week or so.
I did put 2 oz of cranberry flavoring into it to "up the flavor" (bamm!)

DAve

winogeneral wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I began a cranberry wine using whole frozen berries, post thanksgiving
> stock sale!
>
> Anyway, I used a lavlin KV yeast to pitch, but...no go.
> Then after a several days, I used Pasteur Champagne yeast...but still
> no go,
> even after I aerated the batch and also placed it in a tub of hot water
> to get its temperature up and encourage those wee beasties to
> reproduce., but still no go.
>
> I hesitate to simply throw in another packet of yeast. But I hesitate
> to throw the batch away.
> Any suggestions? I only have a packet of lavlin ec yeast and a packet
> of Pasteur Red or Flor Sherry left. Unfortunately, I live 45 miles
> away from the closest winemaking shop...
> any help would be appreciated! thanks.
>
> Rick
> Fremont, MI
>

"winogeneral" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello.
>
> I began a cranberry wine using whole frozen berries, post thanksgiving
> stock sale!
>
> Anyway, I used a lavlin KV yeast to pitch, but...no go.
> Then after a several days, I used Pasteur Champagne yeast...but still
> no go,
> even after I aerated the batch and also placed it in a tub of hot water
> to get its temperature up and encourage those wee beasties to
> reproduce., but still no go.
>
> I hesitate to simply throw in another packet of yeast. But I hesitate
> to throw the batch away.
> Any suggestions? I only have a packet of lavlin ec yeast and a packet
> of Pasteur Red or Flor Sherry left. Unfortunately, I live 45 miles
> away from the closest winemaking shop...
> any help would be appreciated! thanks.

What was the starting specific gravity? If you don't know that, how much
sugar did you add to how many pounds of fruit and what volume of water?

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

I had something like that happen to me with peach wine..I added an
extra cup of water to it and it started up by itself. I got the idea
from reading a book that said sometimes if there is too much sugar the
yeast won't "go", something about them getting dehydrated.

Hi, I don't have anything to measure PH, and followed a recipe which
suggested adding just 1 tsp of acid per gallon when used with the right
amount of fruit. I've been rusty when doing the acid test kit but
should try to do that tomorrow morning and see. But PH, i have no
idea. Carbonate? to lower the acid? alas, I don't have any of
that...@#$%^.

Hi, it was three gallons of water, 6 lbs sugar, and 10 bags of fruit,
which comes to 120 oz, thus, 7 1/2 lbs (7.5), 2.5 lbs per gallon.
starting specific gravity was just over 1.080.

Thanks.

winogeneral wrote:
> Hi, it was three gallons of water, 6 lbs sugar, and 10 bags of fruit,
> which comes to 120 oz, thus, 7 1/2 lbs (7.5), 2.5 lbs per gallon.
> starting specific gravity was just over 1.080.
>
> Thanks.
>

I am making a cranberry wine now with roughly 3 lbs per gallon. I
didn't add any acid blend. When I made cranberry wine from Ocean Spray
cranberry juice, it was crazy tart with acid blend thrown in. I'm not
so sure why fermentation isn't starting because I've had no problem. I
pitched dried Pasteur Red yeast after the fermenter had cooled over
night (I steeped the berries with hot water).

Fermentation was noticeable 12 hours after pitching, although it wasn't
aggressive by any means. Did you use any treated water?

Yeah, you added 1 tsp os acid in addition to 2.5 lbs of cranberries per
gallon? I think your acid level is way high. while yeast can survive
at low pHs, their activity is inhibited. So the fermentation may be
proceeding but it may be imperceptably slow. The cranberries available
in the store are going to be a lot higher in acid than those you pick
fresh too.

To can get calcium carbonate from a wine making store. The carbonate
(which chemically is CO3) will combine with 2 equilivants of acid to
produce a non acidic salt (for cranberry it would be calcium citrate
and calcium malate) and carbon dioxide. If you cannot get that, go to
the grocery store and get some calcium hydroxide, it is sold as
pickling lime. It will produce the same salts plus water. In a pinch
you could add sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), but that will add
sodium to your wine.

there is nothign wrong with fermentin low pH/high acid wines. It is
just that the fermentation tends to be slow and may stick. Even then
in the end you may not be able to drink the resulting wine because of
its acidity. Taste the must now. If it tastes more tart than grape
juice that is an indicator of a high amount of acid (that is no
substitute for a pH meter and a acid test kit).

Anyway, a pinch of carbonate/hydroxide/bicarbonate may be just what
you need. If you take too much acid out you can always add some back
at bottling. just use a tiny bit though, no more than a tsp.

thanks - i appreciate your advice, all of you....I think i will try to
lower the acid...
The must sure has a good nose!
But haven't tasted it yet. The top is clear as the rest of the sludge
has settled in the primary.

I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks again.
Blessings this Christmas.
Rick

You didn't mention this so I'm not sure if you did it. But did you
rehydrate the yeast in warm water before you added it to the must? It
is necessary in order to "wake" up the yeast and let them know they
need to start doing their stuff. If you add it to the must dry then it
doesn't "shock" them enough to get active because the sugar hinders it.
They need water and oxygen to get going.

wrote:
> You didn't mention this so I'm not sure if you did it. But did you
> rehydrate the yeast in warm water before you added it to the must? It
> is necessary in order to "wake" up the yeast and let them know they
> need to start doing their stuff. If you add it to the must dry then it
> doesn't "shock" them enough to get active because the sugar hinders it.
> They need water and oxygen to get going.

You don't need to rehydrate the yeast - for example, kit instructions
always say to just sprinkle on top. Yeast works better when properly
rehydrated but it's designed to work okay even if it's used dry.
Rehydration has some aded risks in that you have to watch the temp
difference between the rehydrated yeast and the must.

Pp

wrote:
> You didn't mention this so I'm not sure if you did it. But did you
> rehydrate the yeast in warm water before you added it to the must? It
> is necessary in order to "wake" up the yeast and let them know they
> need to start doing their stuff. If you add it to the must dry then it
> doesn't "shock" them enough to get active because the sugar hinders it.
> They need water and oxygen to get going.
>
In my case, I just sprinkled the stuff on top. The packet specifically
instructs to do this. To be clear, I'm not the thread starter, and my
stuff did manage to get going.

That being said, I have made starters before from dried yeast. It
didn't necessarily make fermentation better, so I don't bother with it
usually; it's just more work.

pp wrote:
> You don't need to rehydrate the yeast - for example, kit instructions
> always say to just sprinkle on top. Yeast works better when properly
> rehydrated but it's designed to work okay even if it's used dry.
> Rehydration has some aded risks in that you have to watch the temp
> difference between the rehydrated yeast and the must.
>
> Pp

Actually, according to one yeast lab anyway, the shock of rehydrating
in cold must is more harmful to the yeast than rehydrating in warm
water and then introducing it to the cold must. The most critical stage
is when the yeast cells are rehydrating.

More of a nit than anything, because I too believe you can be
successful just sprinkling the yeast on the must. There are so many
cells in that package, even losng 25% during rehydration isn't going to
cause much of a problem as long as proper nutrients are present.

I'm even going to take it a step farther next year and intentionally
under pitch at least a test batch.

Andy

i've been reading this thread and learning a lot. I have used both
techniques with mixed results. one thing I do know - the must must be
warm. I use a heating blanket on my kits that are in primary for 5-7
days, keeping the temperatur at 75, the top end of the range the kit
says (65-75) - and the yeast loves it. I just sit the bucket onthe
heating pad and have a floating thermometer in the must to determine if
i up or down the setting. It is amazing compared to room temperature of 68.
A question, if I go up to 80, would the yeast start dying from the heat?
hmm. I'm not experimenting but wonder. Any one know? Maybe it just would
bubble and turn to alcohol too fast. I don't know.
DAve


JEP62 wrote:
> pp wrote:
>
>>You don't need to rehydrate the yeast - for example, kit instructions
>>always say to just sprinkle on top. Yeast works better when properly
>>rehydrated but it's designed to work okay even if it's used dry.
>>Rehydration has some aded risks in that you have to watch the temp
>>difference between the rehydrated yeast and the must.
>>
>>Pp
>
>
> Actually, according to one yeast lab anyway, the shock of rehydrating
> in cold must is more harmful to the yeast than rehydrating in warm
> water and then introducing it to the cold must. The most critical stage
> is when the yeast cells are rehydrating.
>
> More of a nit than anything, because I too believe you can be
> successful just sprinkling the yeast on the must. There are so many
> cells in that package, even losng 25% during rehydration isn't going to
> cause much of a problem as long as proper nutrients are present.
>
> I'm even going to take it a step farther next year and intentionally
> under pitch at least a test batch.
>
> Andy
>

DAve Allison wrote:
> i've been reading this thread and learning a lot. I have used both
> techniques with mixed results. one thing I do know - the must must be
> warm. I use a heating blanket on my kits that are in primary for 5-7
> days, keeping the temperatur at 75, the top end of the range the kit
> says (65-75) - and the yeast loves it. I just sit the bucket onthe
> heating pad and have a floating thermometer in the must to determine if
> i up or down the setting. It is amazing compared to room temperature of 68.
> A question, if I go up to 80, would the yeast start dying from the heat?
> hmm. I'm not experimenting but wonder. Any one know? Maybe it just would
> bubble and turn to alcohol too fast. I don't know.
> DAve
>

The yeast won't start dying from 80 F, they actually prefer it even
hotter. The problem is the fermentation goes too fast and you increase
your chance of 1) losing some of the variatel characteristics of the
grapes, 2) increasing some off flavors like higher alcohols, 3) with
red grapes, you reduce the amount of time the wine sits on the skins
which could lead to lower extraction.

I ferment with the temp in the high 50s low 60s, especially with white
wines. Reds I tend to let spike up higher.

Andy

Ahh! It's a balancing act, like most other aspects of this
hobby/obsession. thanks for the info. makes sense.


JEP62 wrote:
>>
>
>
> The yeast won't start dying from 80 F, they actually prefer it even
> hotter. The problem is the fermentation goes too fast and you increase
> your chance of 1) losing some of the variatel characteristics of the
> grapes, 2) increasing some off flavors like higher alcohols, 3) with
> red grapes, you reduce the amount of time the wine sits on the skins
> which could lead to lower extraction.
>
> I ferment with the temp in the high 50s low 60s, especially with white
> wines. Reds I tend to let spike up higher.
>
> Andy
>

"Warm water-as opposed to wort or a sugar solution - is the
rehydration media because, for optimal health, the yeast need to
rehydrate quickly. Sigrid Gertsen-Briand of Lallemand likens yeast
reyhydration to an umbrella- you want the shriveled cell wall to "pop"
open and spring in to its natural shape, to slowly unfold. The
presence of sugars or other substances in the rehydration water slows
the flow of water in to the cells. Likewise, until the yeast cells
rehydrate and get their bearing, they are unable to regulate what
passes through their cell membrane very well. Wort contains substances
that are beneficial to yeast but also substances that are toxic to
yeast. Healthy yeast cells don't take these substances in. However,
yeast cells being rehydrated may let some in while they're still
"stunned" from being rehydrated. Once the 15 minutes have passed, the
yeast are inflated and ready to pitch" If you would like to read the
rest of the quote it's in the newest BYO article Jan/Feb issue. It's a
very good article, lots of info on liquid and dry yeast.

Hello, group.
Well, I'm glad to say that i finally got it going.
I did two things, both suggestions from this thread.

I added some calcium carbonate, which I actually had on hand, but had
forgotten about.
that alone, however, did not start the fermentation.

I had a pack of Lavlin EC, and I rehydrated that in a cup of very warm
water mixed with a bit of sugar and yeast energizer, and a couple of
tablespoons of the must. within a couple of hours it was bubbling
away. I added a couple more table spoons. Next morning, still
fermenting, so I added 1/4 cup. At lunch, another. By supper time,
1/2 cup. Before bed, another 1/2 cup. When I woke, 1 cup. At lunch,
I swirled it all around and gently poured it on top of the must in the
primary. By supper, it had a nice cap as all the cranberry sludge was
pushed to the top. . . . aaaaah, the sweet sweet smell of fermentation,
and the joy of not wasting my fruit or my work!

Thanks again for the ideas....
Have a blessed Christmas, y'all!

You gotta love it when a plan comes together...

;o)
Joe

It worked and that is what counts. I will just comment that the normal
procedure is that every time you add more of your mead to the fermenting
starter, add twice as much as you did the last time. But hey, it worked and
you can't complain about success.

Ray

"winogeneral" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello, group.
> Well, I'm glad to say that i finally got it going.
> I did two things, both suggestions from this thread.
>
> I added some calcium carbonate, which I actually had on hand, but had
> forgotten about.
> that alone, however, did not start the fermentation.
>
> I had a pack of Lavlin EC, and I rehydrated that in a cup of very warm
> water mixed with a bit of sugar and yeast energizer, and a couple of
> tablespoons of the must. within a couple of hours it was bubbling
> away. I added a couple more table spoons. Next morning, still
> fermenting, so I added 1/4 cup. At lunch, another. By supper time,
> 1/2 cup. Before bed, another 1/2 cup. When I woke, 1 cup. At lunch,
> I swirled it all around and gently poured it on top of the must in the
> primary. By supper, it had a nice cap as all the cranberry sludge was
> pushed to the top. . . . aaaaah, the sweet sweet smell of fermentation,
> and the joy of not wasting my fruit or my work!
>
> Thanks again for the ideas....
> Have a blessed Christmas, y'all!
>