Which one should be favored, % acid or Ph. Lets say you had a choice
between a .75% acid with a Ph of 2.6 or an acid of .50% with a Ph of 3.3.
Which one would you take and why, or would you try to change them to get a
better balance? If so, how?

Thanks
Crhoff

pH is what protects the wine.

Acid is what gives it flavor.

they are both important. I would err on teh side of protection and age
stability and go with pH.

"Crhoff" > wrote in message
...
> Which one should be favored, % acid or Ph. Lets say you had a choice
> between a .75% acid with a Ph of 2.6 or an acid of .50% with a Ph of 3.3.
> Which one would you take and why, or would you try to change them to get a
> better balance? If so, how?
>
> Thanks
> Crhoff

This may depend on which measurement you trust the most.
pH meters can be sort of difficult to get reliable repeatable measurements -
depending on brand, calibration, probe condition etc. Likewise, TA measures
in a red wine can be hard to detect the end point. If you are referencing a
red wine, I would go with the pH if you are confident of your meter. If
you are referencing a white wine, you might want to weight the TA a bit more
than the pH as it should be easy to detect the end point in a white wine.

Personally I let pH slip in favor of taste, I would rather have a wine
that tasted good with a pH of 3.8 than one that was technically correct
but tasted either tart or flabby.

If you keep your wines at a TA of 5 or higher pH is usually acceptable.
Personally I do not think a dry wine can have a TA over 7.5 and not
taste too tart, it needs some sugar to balance it. Low pH is and high
TA are not common in grape wine.

Taste is everything. The numbers are nice but don't paint the whole
picture. If you need a tie breaker, use taste.

Joe

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Personally I let pH slip in favor of taste, I would rather have a wine
> that tasted good with a pH of 3.8 than one that was technically correct
> but tasted either tart or flabby.
> If you keep your wines at a TA of 5 or higher pH is usually acceptable.
> Personally I do not think a dry wine can have a TA over 7.5 and not
> taste too tart, it needs some sugar to balance it. Low pH is and high
> TA are not common in grape wine.
>
> Taste is everything. The numbers are nice but don't paint the whole
> picture. If you need a tie breaker, use taste.
>
> Joe

I agree with nearly everthing you say except that at wine that taste good at
a pH of 3.8 today, more than likely will not taste all that great in the
future - say a year from now. At least that has been my experience but it
does not mean that it is always true.
To me, wines with a pH of 3.8 taste more like cough medicine than wine, but
that is my taste. I know some will disagree with me strongly on this. That
is what is great about our hobby; we can make wines to our individual
tastes.

I have also had wine that was over 7.5 TA initially and tasted too tart, but
6 months to a year later it was great.

I guess what I am saying that taste IS VERY important but I think one should
also think about where the wine is likely to go after some aging - unless
you want to drink it all gone right now

I grow some St Croix grapes in Maine where the season is cool and short. In
fact people say you shouldn't even bother to try in Maine. Anyway my wine
has high TA and low Ph and your right, I have to add some sugar or it's way
to tart. What do you think is the perfect TA and Ph if you had your choice.
From what I read it looks like about .65% and a Ph of 3.3 - 3.4. Whats the
best way to fix a must with a high TA and low Ph.

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Personally I let pH slip in favor of taste, I would rather have a wine
> that tasted good with a pH of 3.8 than one that was technically correct
> but tasted either tart or flabby.
>
> If you keep your wines at a TA of 5 or higher pH is usually acceptable.
> Personally I do not think a dry wine can have a TA over 7.5 and not
> taste too tart, it needs some sugar to balance it. Low pH is and high
> TA are not common in grape wine.
>
> Taste is everything. The numbers are nice but don't paint the whole
> picture. If you need a tie breaker, use taste.
>
> Joe
>

Have you read the FAQ from rec.crafts.winemaking?
Have you read Jack Keller's website infor?
Have you read Lum Eisman's tutorials?
Have your read Ben Rotter's treatises on winemaking?

They're references free for the searching.

That said, one can raise the pH and lower TA by neutralizing some of the
acid, like one does with antacids for the tummy. In the case of wine,
you'll want to use a potassium-based alkaline material. The most
popular choice is judicious additions of potassium carbonate, which you
can buy at your local winemaking/brew store or on the internet. I don't
remember the dosage off the top of my head, but you can find that by
doing your research easily enough. My preference is to aim for the TA I
want, and take the pH that comes with that.

Gene

Crhoff wrote:
> I grow some St Croix grapes in Maine where the season is cool and short. In
> fact people say you shouldn't even bother to try in Maine. Anyway my wine
> has high TA and low Ph and your right, I have to add some sugar or it's way
> to tart. What do you think is the perfect TA and Ph if you had your choice.
> From what I read it looks like about .65% and a Ph of 3.3 - 3.4. Whats the
> best way to fix a must with a high TA and low Ph.
>
> "Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Personally I let pH slip in favor of taste, I would rather have a wine
>>that tasted good with a pH of 3.8 than one that was technically correct
>>but tasted either tart or flabby.
>>
>>If you keep your wines at a TA of 5 or higher pH is usually acceptable.
>>Personally I do not think a dry wine can have a TA over 7.5 and not
>>taste too tart, it needs some sugar to balance it. Low pH is and high
>>TA are not common in grape wine.
>>
>>Taste is everything. The numbers are nice but don't paint the whole
>>picture. If you need a tie breaker, use taste.
>>
>>Joe
>>
>
>
>

"gene" > wrote in message
. ..
> Have you read the FAQ from rec.crafts.winemaking?
> Have you read Jack Keller's website infor?
> Have you read Lum Eisman's tutorials?
> Have your read Ben Rotter's treatises on winemaking?
>
> They're references free for the searching.
>
> That said, one can raise the pH and lower TA by neutralizing some of the
> acid, like one does with antacids for the tummy. In the case of wine,
> you'll want to use a potassium-based alkaline material. The most popular
> choice is judicious additions of potassium carbonate, which you can buy at
> your local winemaking/brew store or on the internet. I don't remember the
> dosage off the top of my head, but you can find that by doing your
> research easily enough. My preference is to aim for the TA I want, and
> take the pH that comes with that.

On the other hand, there are some such as myself who make mostly red wines
and aim for the pH and take the TA that comes with that. White grapes are
usually more acidic than reds so I can see that since measuring TA is fairly
simple with whites that one might want to use TA as the key measurement with
them.



>
> Gene
>
> Crhoff wrote:
>> I grow some St Croix grapes in Maine where the season is cool and short.
>> In fact people say you shouldn't even bother to try in Maine. Anyway my
>> wine has high TA and low Ph and your right, I have to add some sugar or
>> it's way to tart. What do you think is the perfect TA and Ph if you had
>> your choice. From what I read it looks like about .65% and a Ph of 3.3 -
>> 3.4. Whats the best way to fix a must with a high TA and low Ph.
>>
>> "Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>>Personally I let pH slip in favor of taste, I would rather have a wine
>>>that tasted good with a pH of 3.8 than one that was technically correct
>>>but tasted either tart or flabby.
>>>
>>>If you keep your wines at a TA of 5 or higher pH is usually acceptable.
>>>Personally I do not think a dry wine can have a TA over 7.5 and not
>>>taste too tart, it needs some sugar to balance it. Low pH is and high
>>>TA are not common in grape wine.
>>>
>>>Taste is everything. The numbers are nice but don't paint the whole
>>>picture. If you need a tie breaker, use taste.
>>>
>>>Joe

Actually, IIRC the formation of tartrate crystals is faster and more
complete with calcium salts than it is with potassium.

Since that is the best way to reduce TA and raise pH. If you added
somethgn like sodium bicarbonate, you would raise the pH (and reduce
the TA) but it would not be as effective because the tartrate would
still be there, buffering the pH. using potassium and calcium salts
will make the tartrate precipitate out, which will reduce the TA and
raise the pH (and reduce teh tartrate taste as well).

What if the TA is OK and you just want to raise the Ph a little? Maybe
that's not possible.

"Droopy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Actually, IIRC the formation of tartrate crystals is faster and more
> complete with calcium salts than it is with potassium.
>
> Since that is the best way to reduce TA and raise pH. If you added
> somethgn like sodium bicarbonate, you would raise the pH (and reduce
> the TA) but it would not be as effective because the tartrate would
> still be there, buffering the pH. using potassium and calcium salts
> will make the tartrate precipitate out, which will reduce the TA and
> raise the pH (and reduce teh tartrate taste as well).
>

Paul E. Lehmann ) wrote:

>"gene" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> That said, one can raise the pH and lower TA by neutralizing some of the
>> acid, like one does with antacids for the tummy. In the case of wine,
>> you'll want to use a potassium-based alkaline material. The most popular
>> choice is judicious additions of potassium carbonate, which you can buy at
>> your local winemaking/brew store or on the internet. I don't remember the
>> dosage off the top of my head, but you can find that by doing your
>> research easily enough. My preference is to aim for the TA I want, and
>> take the pH that comes with that.

>On the other hand, there are some such as myself who make mostly red wines
>and aim for the pH and take the TA that comes with that. White grapes are
>usually more acidic than reds so I can see that since measuring TA is fairly
>simple with whites that one might want to use TA as the key measurement with
>them.

And some like myself who put the pH in a healthy (<3.60) range by
acid additions, and then adjust the acidity downward by cold
stabilization and/or acid reduction, as necessary. So I think that
pH and taste are equally important, and you can have both.

A healthy pH in barrel does a lot of good things: helps keep brett
and other spoilage microbes at bay, tends to send the pH further
downward (as opposed to any pH over 3.60, which will just keep
going up as the bitartrate drops out with time), makes sulfite more
effective at lower levels, and I think but can't prove, tastes
better.

And FWIW, TA's in whites can taste good even at fairly high levels.
The best Riesling I ever made went into bottle with a TA of 10 and a
residual sugar of 0.7%.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

Whby would you want to RAISE the pH?

Taste is related to TA. You will taste the acid if it is in teh wine,
reguardless if it is in acid or base form, that is reguardless if it
has its proton stripped from it.

What you want to do is not easily done. Since any chemical treatment
that affects TA will also affect pH.

>I agree with nearly everthing you say except that at wine that taste good at
>a pH of 3.8 today, more than likely will not taste all that great in the
>future - say a year from now. At least that has been my experience but it
>does not mean that it is always true.

Paul,
I try to drink mine faster than that...


Seriously, I rarely have one with high pH longer than 3 years. I
really don't have many reds that are worth drinking in a year either,
they improve from six months to a year. I think the high ph wines are
softer and develop faster; once I like where they are they get used.
It seems those high pH wines are ready to drink sooner, on average.

I have never had a high pH white; it's usually a Pinot Noir from the
Central valley that gives me fits. I do about as David said, I adjust
and stabilize where it seems necessary.

Joe

Joe