I make beer as well as wine. Both are made in my basement brewery/wine
cellar with a lot of the same equipment. Regardless of the beverage all
equipment is washed immediately after it's use. This goes for bottles and
kegs also. For wine I let the equipment and bottles drip dry and take no
further action. For beer I clean as above but before I use carboys, pumps,
tubing or bottles I treat with Iodophor. I add some citric acid to the
Iodophor solution to lower the pH. I understand Iodophor is more effective
in an acid pH. I keep some pre boiled water handy to run through my pumps
and tubing after Iodophor treatment because some solution pools in those
items. Carboys are drained and inverted, then covered with aluminum foil
until they are filled. Bottles are emptied, allowed to drip and are
immediately filled with primed beer. I don't let the Iodophor dry in
containers. In the past I noticed a film that formed on the inside of beer
bottles when they were treated with Iodophor and allowed to dry before
filling.

Since I make beer and wine in the same place, and since beer and wine yeasts
are floating around in the air, I have to be especially careful with beer
wort. I've had some batches of beer ferment much lower in final gravity
than I expected and think they may have been contaminated with wine yeast.
So, for me I'm pretty lax when sanitizing for wine but over cautious when
sanitizing for beer.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

William Frazier wrote:
> I make beer as well as wine. Both are made in my basement brewery/wine
> cellar with a lot of the same equipment. Regardless of the beverage all
> equipment is washed immediately after it's use. This goes for bottles and
> kegs also. For wine I let the equipment and bottles drip dry and take no
> further action. For beer I clean as above but before I use carboys, pumps,
> tubing or bottles I treat with Iodophor. I add some citric acid to the
> Iodophor solution to lower the pH. I understand Iodophor is more effective
> in an acid pH. I keep some pre boiled water handy to run through my pumps
> and tubing after Iodophor treatment because some solution pools in those
> items. Carboys are drained and inverted, then covered with aluminum foil
> until they are filled. Bottles are emptied, allowed to drip and are
> immediately filled with primed beer. I don't let the Iodophor dry in
> containers. In the past I noticed a film that formed on the inside of beer
> bottles when they were treated with Iodophor and allowed to dry before
> filling.
>
> Since I make beer and wine in the same place, and since beer and wine yeasts
> are floating around in the air, I have to be especially careful with beer
> wort. I've had some batches of beer ferment much lower in final gravity
> than I expected and think they may have been contaminated with wine yeast.
> So, for me I'm pretty lax when sanitizing for wine but over cautious when
> sanitizing for beer.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA



I sanitize brewing equipment with iodophore, bleach and one step (if
you consider that a sanitizer). I have never had a beer finish too dry
though. Before using a carboy for beer, I do sanitize that (usually
with iodophor) and let it drip dry.

Meads (and cider) I make like I would wine, only I do not add sulfite
until after primary has completed and I use beer yeast for them. I use
nottingham which finishes dry anyway....so I guess I would not know if
they had cross contaminated. I do pitch a very large starter for them.
This year I made my 20 gallons of mead on a yeast cake from a 15
gallon batch of cider.

In the future I am going tro expand my experiments on spointaneous
fermentations with wine. I already do lambics in a pseudo spontaneous
way adn I think I could manage that with wine as well.

Droopy wrote "In the future I am going tro expand my experiments on
spointaneous
> fermentations with wine. I already do lambics in a pseudo spontaneous
> way adn I think I could manage that with wine as well."

The fellows next door make wine as follows; Buy bushels of Concord grapes,
destem and crush with a machine rented from the local HBS, add many pounds
of sugar (this is done to taste) and let the mixture ferment with what ever
yeast came with the grapes or is floating around in their garage. Nothing
else. I can't convince them to at least use a wine yeast. But, their wine
is actually pretty good for a Concord wine with residule sweetness. They
have been making wine like this for decades and they like it. I'm going to
go watch next year and then try a small batch of "spontaneous" wine using
Baco Noir grapes from my vineyard. The high acid in Baco grapes will
benefit from some residule sugar.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"William Frazier" > wrote in message
news
> Droopy wrote "In the future I am going tro expand my experiments on
> spointaneous
>> fermentations with wine. I already do lambics in a pseudo spontaneous
>> way adn I think I could manage that with wine as well."
>
> The fellows next door make wine as follows; Buy bushels of Concord
> grapes, destem and crush with a machine rented from the local HBS, add
> many pounds of sugar (this is done to taste) and let the mixture ferment
> with what ever yeast came with the grapes or is floating around in their
> garage. Nothing else. I can't convince them to at least use a wine
> yeast. But, their wine is actually pretty good for a Concord wine with
> residule sweetness. They have been making wine like this for decades and
> they like it. I'm going to go watch next year and then try a small batch
> of "spontaneous" wine using Baco Noir grapes from my vineyard. The high
> acid in Baco grapes will benefit from some residule sugar.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA

The high acid in Baco may be a benefit for "spontaneous" wine as it should
inhibit the nasty organisms that like a higher pH environment and can
produce off flavors. I wonder if one could add tartaric to other must that
have a pH around or above 3.5 and try the "spontaneous" method.

I do not do the natural yeast thing but I do lower the pH of must to
slightly below 3.5 before using the cultured yeast and keep the pH below
3.5. I have read that a lot of Australian winemakers do the same thing. It
make sense to me as a 3.5 pH must will typically end up at 3.7 or above
because of "spontaneous" Malo Lactic fermentation and at this higher pH the
nasty organisms that produce off taste are happy doing their thing. There
are ML cultures out there now that are quite happy below 3.5 so I see no
reason to let the "wild" ones take over with the possible results of off
flavor when it is a simple matter to keep the pH in check starting at the
crush. The only disadvantage might be that there is probably less color
extraction at the lower pHs.

I too make beer and wine (and mead and cider once in a while). My
sanitizer is almost exclusively a strong sulfite solution. I figure
it's the only true "no rinse" since it's something that I would
normally add anyway to the wine, mead and cider. If I little gets into
the beer, no big deal. It may even aid in preventing oxidation.

Once in a while I use Idophor just to change things up a bit (maybe
twice a year) but then give a rinse in sulfites to make sure the iodine
is gone.

I'm paranoid about chlorine bleach. I keep it as far away from my hobby
as possible. IMHO, nothing good can come from using it and the down
side is just too big.

Andy

JEP62 wrote:
> I'm paranoid about chlorine bleach. I keep it as far away from my hobby
> as possible. IMHO, nothing good can come from using it and the down
> side is just too big.
>
> Andy


I like bleach in certain situations becasue it cleans as well as
sanitizes (better than one step on the sanitation side). If I have a
nasty residue in a bottle or carboy it gets a strong chlorine solution
to dissolve or soften whatever it is and then a quick rinse to push any
residue out.

All the used wine bottles I get get a chlorine treatment too. Also
anything that is going to have a large volume of sanitizer will get
chlorine, because it is so much cheaper. I have largly switched to
iodophor for brewing though, except bottles whcih still use chlorine.

Sometimes all it takes is a little stirring of the pot. Thank you
Trevor for your role in this spurt of livenliness in r.c.w.

And thank you TomW, Bob, Droopy, Bill and Paul for stepping up to the
plate to show r.c.w. is alive and well on this topic.
And thank you Lum for your, as always, kind and sage guidance.

Gene

Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
> "William Frazier" > wrote in message
> news >
>>Droopy wrote "In the future I am going tro expand my experiments on
>>spointaneous
>>
>>>fermentations with wine. I already do lambics in a pseudo spontaneous
>>>way adn I think I could manage that with wine as well."
>>
>>The fellows next door make wine as follows; Buy bushels of Concord
>>grapes, destem and crush with a machine rented from the local HBS, add
>>many pounds of sugar (this is done to taste) and let the mixture ferment
>>with what ever yeast came with the grapes or is floating around in their
>>garage. Nothing else. I can't convince them to at least use a wine
>>yeast. But, their wine is actually pretty good for a Concord wine with
>>residule sweetness. They have been making wine like this for decades and
>>they like it. I'm going to go watch next year and then try a small batch
>>of "spontaneous" wine using Baco Noir grapes from my vineyard. The high
>>acid in Baco grapes will benefit from some residule sugar.
>>
>>Bill Frazier
>>Olathe, Kansas USA
>
>
> The high acid in Baco may be a benefit for "spontaneous" wine as it should
> inhibit the nasty organisms that like a higher pH environment and can
> produce off flavors. I wonder if one could add tartaric to other must that
> have a pH around or above 3.5 and try the "spontaneous" method.
>
> I do not do the natural yeast thing but I do lower the pH of must to
> slightly below 3.5 before using the cultured yeast and keep the pH below
> 3.5. I have read that a lot of Australian winemakers do the same thing. It
> make sense to me as a 3.5 pH must will typically end up at 3.7 or above
> because of "spontaneous" Malo Lactic fermentation and at this higher pH the
> nasty organisms that produce off taste are happy doing their thing. There
> are ML cultures out there now that are quite happy below 3.5 so I see no
> reason to let the "wild" ones take over with the possible results of off
> flavor when it is a simple matter to keep the pH in check starting at the
> crush. The only disadvantage might be that there is probably less color
> extraction at the lower pHs.
>
>